jimk4

BDE: If your source of information on the success of the IFTS is what you hear from Chuck, then I've got a bridge to sell you, along with a bunch of real estate in Florida where an FFS could be held! Come on, consider the source. Chuck has never had anything negative to say about the success of his shows. When I hear tiers and vendors say that this was the last Symposium they will attend, I'm hearing a much different message than the so-called "official" message. Ask Chuck how many tables were manned by people to whom he had personally reached out and pleaded to come (with financial incentives in some cases), and ask him why he felt that he had to do that. Of course the empty area in back of the aisles has always been there at an IFTS, and it has always been significantly larger than at the FFS, but this year that space was huge. Also, the parking at the hotel and show was much easier this year. I have attended every IFTS since it moved to Somerset, and I have attended every FFS at Somerset during that time, and I have never seen the bookstore anywhere but up in front of the aisles (at other FFS, the bookstore is also set up in high traffic areas, rather than in aisles). I know very well the difference between an IFTS and an FFS since I've attended both for years, and those differences are significant. The mix and makeup of the vendors and tiers is quite different because the target audience is different, as their names make clear. The IFTS is geared towards learning the art of fly tying, and the small number of vendors are usually dedicated to fly tying materials. The FFS is geared towards the sport of fly fishing, and there are a large numbers of vendors selling not just materials, but also rods, reels, waders, and other equipment, as well as clothing, guide services, destinations and accommodations, fishing arts, and just anout anything else you can think of (including some whose relationship to fly fishing, is fishing at all, escapes me). I'm not dissing the 2016 IFTS, I'm expressing my personal disappointment, and that of many others like me who want the Symposium to be as successful as possible. I learn much more at an IFTS than at an FFS, and I get to mingle with those who share my interest. At this stage of my life, I don't need advice on equipment, clothing, etc., that comes from the FFS, but I go to several of them anyway, simply to support their success, and through them the success of our sport. When I need equipment or information, I go to my local fly fishing shops and support their success, knowing full well that I could get lower prices elsewhere, including the Web. No matter how much I want all these shows to succeed, I'm not going to report false information and give misleading impressions just to create a positive atmosphere. If the short-term success of these shows needs to be built on misinformation and subterfuge, they aren't going to have a future anyway. It certainly would not hurt to see Chuck and Ben come down from their lofty perches, share real information, and seek input from a broad array of the tiers and vendors at the tables on what they would like to see done.

BDEflytier, I can't figure out how we went to the same show last weekend, and came away with such different impressions of the number of booths (vendors) and tables (tiers) who were at the show. The floor space can be measured by the number of steel posts that run in rows throughout the exhibition space. The aisles this year were shorter by at least the distance between two posts; it was like a parking lot behind the ends of this year's aisles. Similarly, the number of aisles was smaller by two rows of posts, leaving a large area between the last aisle on the right, and the cafeteria. Furthermore, the book store (associated with the show's producers) was relocated this year from the wall in front of the aisles, into an actual aisle, therefore taking up a large section of aisle space that in other years would have been occupied by vendors and tiers. I did not count the number of booths and tables, but I did not have to in order to see that they were less than prior years. Fewer aisles, and shorter aisles, has to mean less exhibit space (vendors and tiers). Also, I know many of the people who had booths and tables, and I got to speak with many of them on Saturday and Sunday. Everyone with whom I spoke agreed that there was less occupied exhibit space, and that attendance was way down on both days. Some of them saw big drop offs in visitors and sales, and said they would not be back next year; while some still managed to have a good show (at least cover their expenses). I don't know how/where you spent your time on the two days; I was at a vendor booth spending endless hours looking down a near empty aisle (although we did manage to have a successful weekend).

Same here, Philly, nothing in the mail. I'm OK with that, as long as they also build up other avenues of communication. There seemed to be almost nothing for The Symposium. If you get anything in the mail for the Fly Fishing Shows in January, it's likely to be an offer to sell all rights to the shows.

Hi flytire. You mentioned two shows that I attend every year. The Fly Fishing Show in Marlboro MA (one of seven locations where TFFS will be held this year) has had its ups and downs over the years. It used to be very popular, drawing heavily from neighboring States to the North; then saw a falloff for several years, and recently has been on a tenuous resurgence. The recent success can be attributed in no small part to the efforts of Scott Wessels at Bear's Den Fly Fishing Co. in Taunton MA - a great shop for fly tyers and fishers; he takes very large retail booth spaces, and encourages his many suppliers to set up vendor booths. It will be interesting to see how attendance is this year; this Show almost always has two big factors with which to contend: New England Patriots playoff games, and a pattern of really nasty weather on at least one day of the three-day event - January 20, 21, 22 in 2017. I can guarantee that there will be at least one person there for all three days. And at TFFS held the following weekend, January 27, 28, 29, at the NJ Convention Center in Somerset NJ (the same site where The International Symposium is held). And likely at TFFS held on March 4 & 5 at The Lancaster County Convention Center in Lancaster PA. The Arts of The Angler Show, held in November in Danbury CT, has been the favorite show of many Eastern tyers for years, at least in part because it is the first show of the year around here, and thus the first opportunity for friends to get together. Professional and public attendance has always been great - up until this year's Show held on November 5 & 6 that is. This year's Show was a bust; it suffered from at least two fatal factors. The AAS has always been held on the weekend before the International Symposium, enabling many people who have to travel a long distance to combine two great shows into one extended week; someone let that date get away this year, and that fact never caught up with many of the usual attendees - the ultimate in bad communications! Also, perhaps the single major factor in the success of this Show has been a consistent, experienced, well-known management team. Two of the key members of that team departed this year, and their replacements just weren't up to the task (or should I say didn't have a clue what they were dealing with). It's going to be hard to get the core tyers and vendors to support this Show again.

Amen, BuzFly. The biggest problem is with the management of the shows! It will be interesting to see if there is enough commitment and time for them to make significant changes before The Fly Fishing Shows start up in January.

I get the point, Bimini, and it's a good one, however hard it is to quantify. And many of us old timers make a lot of use of Web sources to supplement our own face-to-face learning. It's all good stuff that helps assure the continuation of our hobby/sport. Still, it's so satisfying to see some young tyers come to the shows (I've seen some of the same ones at almost every show, year after year), and stand in front of an old tyer watching his every move, and savoring his every word, for as long as he can. And their biggest thrill is when the tyer removes the finished fly from his vice and hands it to the kid (try to do that on YouTube). These are the kids who often are already very accomplished tyers in their own right, and it's not hard to picture them down the road being the ones behind the tables, passing their knowledge, and their completed flies, to the next generation. I just wish there were more of them.

Who among us hasn't used YouTube for fly tying instruction. Personally, I think there's no comparison with live tying demos. You can't ask YT a question, and get an immediate answer, e.g., why did you use that material and not this material that I've always used. You can't ask YT why the tyer did whatever he just did. You can't ask YT to slowly repeat a step. You can't ask YT to help you with a particular problem that you have. And rewinding a YT video can't compare with watching a live tyer repeatedly tie a certain fly. I could go on, but you get the point: Once someone has experienced live tying instruction, I think he will become addicted to live shows and classes.

I can't address why the sponsors/promoters/owners (whatever they want to be called) have thus far chosen not to hold shows further South, but I can say that the shows in the Northeast, while primarily devoted to trout fishermen, have many tyers of bass and saltwater flies. And there are many vendors specializing in those types of fishing. And the January shows have many guides and captains for saltwater fishing. So, the shows, like the sport itself, are moving beyond the narrow scope of just trout fishing. Of course, it is the history and traditions of fly fishing that has drawn many people to it for centuries. Today, it seems that new tyers may be very interested in the hobby itself, but less so in the traditions and history. They are more willing to adopt new techniques and materials that are a part of modern tying, instead of insisting that traditional flies, materials, and techniques are the only "approved" way of tying. But I think it's fair to say that the shows have been very effective in addressing the needs of both the traditionalists and the innovators. I think it is also fair to say that the movement into saltwater fly fishing, and to somewhat a lesser degree to bass fly fishing, has been a comparatively recent development. This requires that the show promoters do more and better research on where their audiences are located, instead of just using the same old sites, some of which have had a shaky history of attendance. "That's the way we've always done it." just doesn't cut it anymore.

Hi Mogup. From a purely selfish perspective, this was a great show because, as you noted, the sparse attendance left the pro tyers with lots of time to talk with you, and demonstrate their tying points. It also left the tyers with lots of time to visit with their fellow tyers; for many of them, this is their only chance all year to see their friends and colleagues. Traditionally this show has not had nearly as many materials and other vendors as the "January Show" at the same location because The Symposium's focus is on the tying itself. Most of the important materials vendors that I usually see at The Symposium were there this weekend and, possivly prompted by the low attendance, there were some good deals to be had. The seminars and tying demonstrations were lightly attended as a result of the low show attendance, so it was easier to see, and there was more time for someone to ask questions. And there were practically no lines at the Authors' Booth to get books signed. We stayed at the DoubleTree, and we thought the renovated bar/restaurant was very nice, and the menu was much improved over what had been offered previously. The morning buffet continued to be well done. And I am compelled to note that there was a tall, thin African American woman at the DoubleTree Front Desk who absolutely stunning, as well as knowledgeable and efficient. I'd come back in January to just sit in the Lobby watching her all day! There wasn't a single tyer who was anywhere near as attractive! The only thing I did not like was the paltry attendance because it could lead to the demise of The Symposium, and it cast a somewhat black cloud over the two days. It was very disheartening for the tyers and vendors.

I don't post much, but I couldn't let this one pass since I just came back from spending the weekend at The Symposium. I want it to be clear up front that I'm just an old guy who ties flies occasionally, and enjoys being out on the water, whether fly fishing or not. I have attended almost all of The Symposiums, and many of the Fly Fishing Shows at three different locations in the East for the past eight(?) years. I have absolutely no connection whatsoever to any of the shows, or the people who run them. The comments expressed here are my own personal reflections. This Symposium has been run at this time of the year for a long time, and it always attracted good crowds of people anxious to meet the World's Best Fly Tyers, and to learn from these generous people how to improve their own tying skills. These people believe strongly in the value of The Symposium, and go out of their way to make the weekend before Thanksgiving work in their busy schedules. It would be pretty hard to change the dates for The Symposium to after the Holidays because the same family that sponsors this show also sponsor a series of other regional shows called The Fly Fishing Show in various locations in the country during the early months of the year. These Shows are aimed at all aspects of fly fishing - tying, fishing, materials, guides, professional camps, etc.. There are many tables with tiers, materials vendors, and others, as well as many demonstrations and seminars. Again, attendance in the past has generally been very good at most locations. The attendance at The Symposium this weekend (as well as at an annual show in Danbury CT usually held a weekend or two before this) was, in my opinion, horrible, and could very well influence the likelihood of these programs continuing. Most of the tyers and vendors at the tables don't go to these shows to make money; their main goal is just to share information, and support a sport/hobby that has brought them countless hours of satisfaction. They would, however, like to at least cover the expenses that they incur for travel, room, and food. Poor attendance means inadequate cash flow for everyone involved in the shows, and that will absolutely lead to the demise of the shows. When attendance is as low as this year's, it leaves nearly everyone scratching their heads, and hypothesizing as to what caused it. Several factors are quite apparent. Fly tying and fishing were much more popular in prior generations than they appear to be with the most recent generations, who seem little concerned with doing anything outdoors if it interferes with their time spent plugged into various electronic equipment. When the older generations of tyers and fishers shrink through death, and their ranks are not replenished from the newer generations, the number of devotees is going to diminish. Many of us see this happening in our own families. When the older devotees die, their families often end up selling all their fishing equipment and tying supplies because no one in the family wants them. Participating in our sport is becoming more expensive. Sure, there have been amazing improvements in the quality of our tackle compared to that of our Fathers and Grandfathers, but those improvements have brought huge price increases. And unlike earlier generations, today we are deluged with advertising convincing us that we need more and better equipment, and more exotic locations, to be considered successful. As a result, our sport has been pushed beyond the financial ability of many people to participate in it. I can go on, but you get the picture. Attendance at shows is down because interest in the sport is down. That's the reality of the situation. And I am not aware of anyone who has the magic solution to this problem. But I do know that when "We've always done it that way." doesn't produce the results we want, it's time to change the way we do it. By that I mean that the people who sponsor and produce these shows need to examine new and better ways of designing the content, and then communicating that content in more contemporary ways. Just continuously following the prior ways may have been easy money for years, but it just doesn't cut it any more. That in turn leads to another critical question - are the current sponsors and producers up to the challenge?

Nice job on the video - good fast pace. I like the way you show the package of each ingredient, and then put the name of it on the screen - great idea. Could you get the camera closer so that the fly is larger on the screen? How about adding an HD pic of the finished fly to your post? Thanks for the work you do. Jim