Mark Knapp

In my opinion, it shouldn't be written if it can be taken as an insult or a joke, it should be written so it can only be taken as a joke. If it's meant as an insult it will need to be handled in another way. Any joke made in criticism is most likely to be taken as an insult unless it's made clear that it was meant as a joke.

You and I Mr. deck have had many discussions and we have often differed in our opinions. I have never felt like you (in this post or any other) have treated me or any one else poorly. Not so with some other people. I have not said anything to limit discussion on the forum, I have tried to limit nasty and insulting discussion on the forum. I feel like we are all intelligent people and everyone here knows the difference between polite conversation and rude conversation. It's just as easy to say what you want to say nicely as it is to say it impolitely. I'm not sure why some people (not you) feel like it's more important for them to make their point quickly and curtly than it is to take care not to hurt someones feelings or insult them. Someone not so long ago once told another person on here that their flies looked like crap, a young person at that, and they did not do it jokingly. I'm not sure why it's hard to believe that someone would leave this site because they didn't like the way others were treated here. There are others here that feel the same way, they have not left (yet) but they have cut back (they say) for that reason. The one I talked to personally would not have been critiqued, he is very highly thought of here. It is not the fault of the listener if they take something the wrong way, it's the responsibility of the speaker to say things in a way that cannot be mistaken (within reason). Especially on the internet, in written word where inflection and tone of voice cannot be heard. It's the sign of a skilled speaker to be able to say something and have people that don't know him understand him correctly (again, not you, you do it very well). I have not implemented any new rules, the title is "Guidelines for critique", I used the word "Please" and I asked very nicely. I wrote it so people can be aware that other people have gotten their feelings hurt, some have left and others may not be posting or becoming members because of it. A car horn can be blown with a polite, little "beep, beep" to mean "excuse me, the light is green and it appears you haven't noticed" or it can be blown like "BEEEEEEEEEEEEP" to mean "Get out blank out of the way you bleeping, stupid bleeping son of a bleep" I agree with you on the PM function, if something is good enough to say to one person, it's good enough to say to everyone, out in the open. No body else learns from a PM. When I write I try very hard not to insult or embarrass other people because it doesn't help them or anybody else. It just causes hard feeling and lowered contributions to the forum. I'm am secure enough in the things that I do that I don't need to tear someone else down to make my point.

One of the reasons why the fly tying/fishing community might be seen as arrogant and elitist may be the way we criticize others. There's a nice way and not-so nice way to say anything. I'm not saying don't critique, I'm just saying if you are going to critique, do it nicely, do it to help someone else and not for self-aggrandizement. Who's going to argue about being nice?

No one got to me. These are accepted practices taught in art schools all over the US. I personally haven't felt harshly critiqued but I have been paying attention and I have been asked to write something up.

I really don't want to give names but I can tell you that at least one highly respected, very skilled, avid contributor recently left for that reason. He did not leave because he personally was being treated poorly, he left partly because people were being criticized harshly at times. It's not a new problem, or a serious one but it has been brought up more than once after a particularly rude or harsh comment. People have been, for a long time, wondering why we don't have more new tiers and lady tiers contributing, some of us think that harsh critique may be a reason. There's always more than one way to say something. Many of us think we will encourage more people to contribute if we choose the kinder approach rather than the short, curt one. There's no reason why anyone should need a "thick skin" to participate here. IMHO. Judging by the responses to this thread so far, at least half of us think it's a good thing to do.

Point well taken. I think that any critique can be given in a respectful, well-meaning way, and if given in that way should be taken that way. In those cases, the moderators will be watching and they will be handled on a case by case basis. I will ad an addendum that will hopefully answer your concerns.

I did notice that. You'll have to watch him closely to make sure there are no mysterious midnight groomings perpetrated by nefarious neighboring forum members.

Sometimes people want to post something without necessarily being critiqued and it has made some people reluctant to post. Others feel like it's open season for criticism if it's posted on the forum. To help clear things up a little, here are some guidelines for critique on this forum. Do not critique unless critique is asked for. If you believe you could help someone do better, but they haven't asked for critique, simply ask them if they are open to critique. Only constructive criticism is acceptable. Constructive critique is done to help someone improve, not to show how much you know. If you are not able to help someone do better, it's better not to say anything. For example, instead of saying something like "The proportions are all wrong" say " Traditionally on that fly the tail is about one hook shank in length and the hackle is...." The former is not going to help anyone do better. In some cases, critique may not be asked for but it really may be necessary. In cases of proper fish handling, general safety precautions, and matters of ethics and legality, critique may not be welcomed but in the interest of a better community and community image it may be necessary.

It can be a big problem to pack them out if you let it. I guided for moose most of my adult life and have packed them a long way. In many parts of Alaska you can't bone them out so 600 pounds of stuff to pack out makes it a chore. I know better now. Now I shoot young, tasty ones right on the river bank where I can pull my raft right up to it.

Nope, still not very much between Tok and Delta. You can go to Mukluk land when you get to Tok. That right there makes the whole trip worth it.😁

We'll have to come up with a more easily obtainable substitute, maybe polar bear.😁

Not a problem, none of our hunting seasons are in the spring (except bears). I haven't heard of spring moose seasons in Canada either. I wonder who's shooting moose in the spring.

Oliver is a cutie, and the flies look great. I know I'll catch fish with the ones you sent me.

I sure will. Thanks again.

Just the mere mention of a trip to the arctic settles him down. No way he's coming here.

I know how to handle Mike, all I have to do is invite him to come to the arctic to fish and he's quiet for a while. I got his number.

I don't even want to talk about diets. They just make me mad, but the doctor says I'll live longer if I do it. Stupid doctors, what do they know anyway.

Wait, I already had some pretty big pants on. You want me to put on bigger pants?

It's very good but if you're not careful you can get a tough one. I like to shoot the two year olds, for that reason.

Yep, and just think how many flies his skin will make. And knife handles on his head.

It rained on us for most of the time but it really was enjoyable. There's really nothing like silently floating a river and watching it go by, even if the fish aren't biting and the mosquitoes are.

As it turns out, the corks just arrived and it looks like they will work perfectly. The flies look like they will work really good too. I'll use them on Silver Salmon this fall and Lakers next summer. Thank you very much for everything. Forged in Fire was a blast and I'd do it again if they ask me. Thanks again, Mark

It was a nice video D, thanks for posting it. It was long but not arduous. The ads didn't bother me, just a click and it's gone.

I just got back from my annual moose hunt and grayling fishing float trip. It's been raining here all summer and the rivers are all high and washed out. Beaver creek was so muddy you couldn't see the bottom in a foot of water resulting in horrible fishing. We were able to catch enough to eat but our normal 100 fish per day was just a dream this fall. One of the consequences of Covid 19 this year was that none of the remote villages and towns were letting people float or fly into them to start or end trips so pressure on rivers that didn't require villages was dramatically increased. Normally we see one or two other parties on a ten day float trip on Beaver Creek, this year there were ten other parties. Everyone had to be patient of other parties on the river. We had also had to cancel one of my other trips this fall that required a visit to a village. We had one incident, early on, where another party made a moose drive (of 6 people) right through a spot we had been glassing for three days, watching cow moose and waiting for the bulls to show themselves. One of the drivers passed withing 30 yards of our camp. Kind of rude. We picked up and moved on down the river. On the ninth day, of the ten day float, my buddy and I were floating past another parties camp in the evening, an hour or so before dark. At the end of the gravel bar, three or four hundred yards from their' camp, was a guy sitting on a log, we waved at him as we went by, he waved back with no other indication of anything. No sooner had we passed by him when I saw a bull moose just out of his view but within a long rifle shot of him. I looked back at him and could tell he didn't know the moose was there. I was within 125 yards of the moose, I shot it and when I did the guy on the log threw up his arms in disgust, blurted some foul language, gathered up his stuff and went to his camp. I hollered at him that I was sorry (to shoot a moose right in front of him, not that it was his moose). After making sure the moose was secure I asked my buddy to walk over to the camp five hundred yards away and offer them half of the moose while I got started working on it. There's no way of knowing if he was even going to see the moose, or if he would have gotten it, if we hadn't come along but it seemed like a fair thing to do. After a little while my buddy and the other hunter came over and we agreed he'd take half of the moose, he was very grateful for the offer and said he'd go back and get his partner and some game bags, knives and back packs in order to help with the butchering and carrying back their' meat. We got to talking about how much pressure their was on the river this year and I related to him the story of the inconsiderate guys that had done a moose drive though our camp. I saw a funny wrinkle on his face when I mentioned that. When he back to where we were working on the moose, after talking to his hunting partner, he declined the offer of half of the moose. He said it was my moose, I got it fair and square and he wasn't taking any of it. I offered him a back strap or a tender loin and he declined it all. I said that maybe Karma would even it all out in the end and he got another weird wrinkle on his face. He helped process the moose and load it onto my raft. As he was leaving I asked him his full name and address, I was going to send him something nice. He wouldn't give it to me. He just said everything was cool. Here's the kicker, it turns out, he and his partner were part of the crew that had made the drive though our camp. Karma, or what ever you want to call it is a funny thing. This time it was swift and pungent. Here's my moose, perfect for eating.

Those are pretty cool, I'd heard of them but never seen them.