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Mark Knapp

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Posts posted by Mark Knapp

  1. 15 minutes ago, FIN-ITE 34 said:

    Here is a suggestion that works for me when typing a reply to a post. Before hitting the Submit Reply button, read over what you just typed and wait a minute or two to see if you really want to submit what it was you just typed. You may, like I, just not submit it, or re-phrase what it was you were trying to convey.

    That's what I do.

  2. 7 minutes ago, Bazzer69 said:

    Mark, you have only been a member of this forum for two years. As a moderator it’s your job to interpret the rules not to make them. 
    The world has gone mad with so called “wokeness “ it would be a shame to see this forum to go the same way, it would seem to me that you are encouraging that. 
    just my opinion of course from a 5’ 11” member who’s had nearly thirty years in the industry, Trout and Salmon only of course. 
    im not interested in keeping this crazy thread going any longer, maybe one of the moderators should lock it?


    Again, I am a moderator.

    What does it matter if I've only been a member here for two years, I've been asked to be a moderator. Maybe you should ask the head moderator how that came to be. I can see that you have 155 posts, I have 2,618. Why would your opinions be more valid than mine?

    Again, I did not make this stuff up. I was asked to do something to help make the forum a kinder place by current and former, LONG TIME members of this forum.

    Are you reading the whole thread or just skimming because it seems like you keep bringing up questions that have already been answered several times.


  3. 22 minutes ago, Bazzer69 said:

    Is this forum following the left in becoming to “woke”. 
    if a fly dressing with a picture is badly tied why not say so as long as it’s constructive criticism?


    Barry, all I'm asking is for people to be kinder to other people.

    If you walk up to another guy on a river while he's fly fishing, that you don't know, do you start telling him how to cast better? Even if he doesn't ask?

    If I present a bunch of knives on a table at a show and someone walks up and starts commenting about the mistakes I made on the knives, there's going to be a problem.

    Why is the internet different, why is anything posted fair game for criticism just because someone posted it? It's open for discussion sure, you and I both know there is a difference between conversation and critique. And there is a difference between constructive critique and tearing someone down to make ones self look knowledgeable.

    I did not make this all up, the guidelines I posted are recognized criteria for critique all over the place. In art school, the rules are much stricter than this. At knife shows there are clear rules of etiquette that are standard. You don't pick up a knife unless you are given permission to do so. You don't give critique unless you are asked to do it. Etc.

    These are not MY perceived problems, these guidelines are the results of conversations with other current and past members.

  4. 16 minutes ago, Sandan said:

    Mark, again I'm going to respectfully disagree on some things here. After this comment I'm done w/ the topic, because I think we're basically on the same page.  It's just as much the sign of a poor listener to take offense when none is intended, implied or imputed. Agreed the speaker needs to be clear.  Here's an example.  I'm talking to you, you're say 6'6" go about 245. I say you're a pretty big guy. You get all bent out of shape and get offended because you inferred I just called you fat. (Not me and you of course)

    I wish I was 6'6" and 245. Your so sweet. I value what ever you have to say, you are one of the gems of this site. Unfortunately, one of the other gems of this site left because HE saw things he didn't like.

    I wrote this post to encourage more younger folks to post and I wrote it because I thought it might encourage ladies to participate.

    This is a great place, fly tiers are known for striving for perfection, that's what I'm doing.

  5. 21 minutes ago, Pbass said:

    I have struggled at times in life to understand that other peoples perceptions are their realities. It does not matter what my intentions were in a conversation. If I left them feeling invalid or insulted and I did not intend to, then I have some things to look at about myself. 

    I am only speaking about me from my experience but after 20 years in leadership positions at work and having as many as 240 employees at a time I have found that people are easily offended. This is Especially true if they put creativity and effort into something. To me that puts a heavy responsibility on ME to insure that my intentions to help them improve are encouraging and uplifting. 


    Yeah, that's exactly what I am saying. Bravo. you want to be a moderator? It's easy. (Just kidding of course, not my call)

  6. 35 minutes ago, Sandan said:

    Of course it's a privilege.  Being offended by someone's well meaning comment is abuse of privilege. (I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night)

    You see, that's where the problem is. Sometimes they are well meaning and sometimes they are not. If you write a well meaning comment, make sure it can only be read as well meaning. It's very easy to do.

    I'm not talking here of you personally, you have always come off as a well meaning person. I could have used the word "One" instead of "You" but it makes it sound like I'm a robot. I AM NOT A ROBOT, A ROBOT, A ROBOT.


  7. 5 hours ago, flytire said:

    maybe its time the moderators and more importantly the forum owner get together offline and come up with a set of reasonable and fair rules/guidelines for the forum and put them in writing in a sticky or some other readily accessible place so that all members present and future can read


    put the "unwritten" rules into "written" rules


    That's exactly what I did. Only the location was different. I'm pretty sure no one would have seen what I wrote if I had put it in the "Forum Rules"

  8. 28 minutes ago, Sandan said:

    Respectfully disagree. One party cannot be held to a higher standard.  The presumption of innocence is fundamental.  It is the responsibility of the listener to assume no harm, unless it's explicit.  It's the responsibility of the speaker to be clear in what they are saying. 

    I personally don't want what I say to be misconstrued, and if it is, it's my fault for saying something that can be misconstrued. It's the sign of a skilled speaker to say what he means to say. It's the sign of a poor speaker to let what they say be mistaken.

    Lots of critique is given as veiled insults in the pretense to "help" somebody. We can all word any comment in a way that it could not be taken the wrong way (usually just by adding a word or two).

  9. 1 hour ago, mikechell said:

    There's an old adage to online communication.  (Yes, it's been around long enough to have "old" adages)  When reading a post, "If it can be taken as an insult or a joke, take it as a joke."

    On the other hand, when YOU type something, read it.  Just believe that when other people read it, "If can be taken as an insult or a joke, they'll take it as an insult." and DON'T hit send.

    In my opinion, it shouldn't be written if it can be taken as an insult or a joke, it should be written so it can only be taken as a joke. If it's meant as an insult it will need to be handled in another way.

    Any joke made in criticism is most likely to be taken as an insult unless it's made clear that it was meant as a joke.

  10. 2 hours ago, Poopdeck said:

    I want to first point out that I am saying this nicely. I can't help how it is received by the multitudes of people from many different socioeconomic groups and geographical locations from around the globe. I realize I am often misunderstood by some and perhaps comments on this thread are inappropriate but it seems to have provoked discussion and different opinions which I find to always be a good thing. 

    someone leaving the site because they were offended for others?.?????., this is a good reason to leave the site. It is a terrible reason to enact a no discussion clause to postings. So basically, the only response to a fly picture, unless a specific request for comment is present, is, "beautiful fly, great job." That's a funny way of learning to me. Most flies I see posted are great ties anyway so I'm not so sure how often this problem comes up. I can honestly say I have never read any harsh critiques. I can also say some critiques have been received as harsh but typically by a third party and not the original poster. For the life of me I cannot understand this and see no reason why a  rule needs to be implemented to appease those that are easily offended for others. 

    What some view as harsh is merely a geographical issue. I will use flytire as an example, he is from the Boston area and I have learned many things from him. Is he harsh, I don't think so, it's just the way it is in Boston. I'm from the Philadelphia area, we like to get to the point quickly and clearly. It may sound harsh to somebody in east gibip Wyoming but it's the Best way to live and communicate with the tens of thousands of people you walk by, drive by or talk to on any given day. That and a good car horn, which I have found to be an excellent way of communicating quickly with others. No anger in the horn or comments just simple effective communication. 

    The worst form of communication is one dimensional communication which is exactly what the internet is.  People seem to forget this and see nothing but harshness and meanness without actually knowing the person on the other end. Pouting about the comments of others made to someone else without actually knowing the commentator or the someone else should be discouraged, not encouraged. 

    its been my experience that those who ask for a critique are the ones least capable of accepting critique. 

    The PM function discourages open discussion. why on earth would closed communications be encouraged and open discussion (on a discussion board) be curtailed. Other forums have been killed by them PM because it is sometimes used by members to speak with other members about the postings of others in an extremely negative way. In other words it becomes a tool to spread hate behind closed doors. 

    I say this with nothing but respect and admiration for the moderators and owners of this site. It really is the best discussion forum on the web because of the efforts of SD, Mike, others I can't think of and no doubt Mark as well. As a rule follower I will follow all rules but this rule should be reconsidered because critique is not a bad thing.  Thanks for listening. 


    You and I Mr. deck have had many discussions and we have often differed in our opinions. I have never felt like you (in this post or any other) have treated me or any one else poorly. Not so with some other people.

    I have not said anything to limit discussion on the forum, I have tried to limit nasty and insulting discussion on the forum. I feel like we are all intelligent people and everyone here knows the difference between polite conversation and rude conversation. It's just as easy to say what you want to say nicely as it is to say it impolitely. I'm not sure why some people (not you) feel like it's more important for them to make their point quickly and curtly than it is to take care not to hurt someones feelings or insult them.

    Someone not so long ago once told another person on here that their flies looked like crap, a young person at that, and they did not do it jokingly.

    I'm not sure why it's hard to believe that someone would leave this site because they didn't like the way others were treated here. There are others here that feel the same way, they have not left (yet) but they have cut back (they say) for that reason. The one I talked to personally would not have been critiqued, he is very highly thought of here.

    It is not the fault of the listener if they take something the wrong way, it's the responsibility of the speaker to say things in a way that cannot be mistaken (within reason). Especially on the internet, in written word where inflection and tone of voice cannot be heard. It's the sign of a skilled speaker to be able to say something and have people that don't know him understand him correctly (again, not you, you do it very well).

    I have not implemented any new rules, the title is "Guidelines for critique", I used the word "Please" and I asked very nicely. I wrote it so people can be aware that other people have gotten their feelings hurt, some have left and others may not be posting or becoming members because of it.

    A car horn can be blown with a polite, little "beep, beep" to mean "excuse me, the light is green and it appears you haven't noticed" or it can be blown like "BEEEEEEEEEEEEP" to mean "Get out blank out of the way you bleeping, stupid bleeping son of a bleep"

    I agree with you on the PM function, if something is good enough to say to one person, it's good enough to say to everyone, out in the open. No body else learns from a PM.

    When I write I try very hard not to insult or embarrass other people because it doesn't help them or anybody else. It just causes hard feeling and lowered contributions to the forum. I'm am secure enough in the things that I do that I don't need to tear someone else down to make my point.



  11. One of the reasons why the fly tying/fishing community might be seen as arrogant and elitist may be the way we criticize others. There's a nice way and not-so nice way to say anything. I'm not saying don't critique, I'm just saying if you are going to critique, do it nicely, do it to help someone else and not for self-aggrandizement.

    Who's going to argue about being nice?

  12. 1 hour ago, Bill_729 said:


    Man, someone got to you.  I stopped going to a forum once everyone seemed afraid to make honest comments or suggestions, and as a result  there was little to be gained.  YMMV.

    No one got to me. These are accepted practices taught in art schools all over the US. I personally haven't felt harshly critiqued but I have been paying attention and I have been asked to write something up.

  13. 27 minutes ago, Sandan said:

    I agree w/ both our new mod and mogup. My questions, is this really a problem?, how often does it happen?


    21 minutes ago, Bill_729 said:

    I didn't realize we had a problem either!  In fact, I can't recall any malicious comments about fly tying.


    24 minutes ago, flytire said:

    wow! looks like my future involvement in trying to help new tyers is going to be very very limited 

    who complained?

    I really don't want to give names but I can tell you that at least one highly respected, very skilled, avid contributor recently left for that reason. He did not leave because he personally was being treated poorly, he left partly because people were being criticized harshly at times. It's not a new problem, or a serious one but it has been brought up more than once after a particularly rude or harsh comment.

    People have been, for a long time, wondering why we don't have more new tiers and lady tiers contributing, some of us think that harsh critique may be a reason.

    There's always more than one way to say something. Many of us think we will encourage more people to contribute if we choose the kinder approach rather than the short, curt one.

    There's no reason why anyone should need a "thick skin" to participate here. IMHO.

    Judging by the responses to this thread so far, at least half of us think it's a good thing to do.

  14. 43 minutes ago, knotjoe said:

    Does this apply to proper fish handling, general safety precautions, and matters of ethics and legality?

    I get the part where one can "ask if someone is open to critique" but if such critique might be deemed unflattering a person may refuse or decline accepting input publicly.  Could be PM'd, but then we'd lose the benefit of the thread readership learning something from the critique.  IOW, it'd never see the light of day if the OP was more into the gratification aspects of posting.

    I don't personally have an issue withholding critique, just that I have admittedly learned a lot from others unsolicited critiques as annoying as they may have been to the original poster.  There's a lot of "Wow, I never thought about it that way!" which occurs in internet discussion threads.  

    Point well taken. I think that any critique can be given in a respectful, well-meaning way, and if given in that way should be taken that way. In those cases, the moderators will be watching and they will be handled on a case by case basis. I will ad an addendum that will hopefully answer your concerns.

  15. 3 minutes ago, DFoster said:

    It's funny you say that- If you check the tails of your flies his fur is very similar to polar bear in texture and color though he doesn't have the subtle iridescence that polar bear fur does.   

    I did notice that. You'll have to watch him closely to make sure there are no mysterious midnight groomings perpetrated by nefarious neighboring forum members.

  16. Sometimes people want to post something without necessarily being critiqued and it has made some people reluctant to post. Others feel like it's open season for criticism if it's posted on the forum. To help clear things up a little, here are some guidelines for critique on this forum.

    • Do not critique unless critique is asked for.
    • If you believe you could help someone do better, but they haven't asked for critique, simply ask them if they are open to critique.
    • Only constructive criticism is acceptable. Constructive critique is done to help someone improve, not to show how much you know. If you are not able to help someone do better, it's better not to say anything. For example, instead of saying something like "The proportions are all wrong" say " Traditionally on that fly the tail is about one hook shank in length and the hackle is...." The former is not going to help anyone do better.
    • In some cases, critique may not be asked for but it really may be necessary. In cases of proper fish handling, general safety precautions, and matters of ethics and legality, critique may not be welcomed but in the interest of a better community and community image it may be necessary.


  17. 3 hours ago, Peartree said:

    Nice looking moose.  I can’t imagine having to pack that thing out.  Pulled big deer out of some really bad places, but just moving something that big is a feat in its own.

    Good to hear the guy did the right thing by you as well.

    It can be a big problem to pack them out if you let it. I guided for moose most of my adult life and have packed them a long way. In many parts of Alaska you can't bone them out so 600 pounds of stuff to pack out makes it a chore.

    I know better now. Now I shoot young, tasty ones right on the river bank where I can pull my raft right up to it.

  18. 5 hours ago, BHouk said:

    We were in Batachawanna (sic) Bay, north shore of Lake Superior, a few years ago and spoke with the chef at the "resort" restaurant (everything is a resort in that area).  She said to make sure you take a moose in the fall.  In the spring they all taste like turpentine having eaten pine needles all winter.  She went on to explain the meat was green and there was no way to prepare it without the pine taste.  Therefore, she was not fond of moose.

    Not a problem, none of our hunting seasons are in the spring (except bears). I haven't heard of spring moose seasons in Canada either. I wonder who's shooting moose in the spring.

  19. 1 hour ago, DFoster said:

    This our pup "Oliver", after a recent grooming he served as the inspiration and material source for a few #4 streamer flies.  I know tying from the family pooch has been done many times and I have no idea if they''ll catch fish but it was still fun.




    Oliver is a cutie, and the flies look great. I know I'll catch fish with the ones you sent me.

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