cheech

Here is the point...

You won't chip your jaws if you don't place the hook too far forward.

Another point... I absolutely DESTROYED a pair of Thompson jaws in about 6 months. Why? User error. I'd clamp them down too tight. They wouldn't replace them either.

Holy pissing contest. People need to get outside more often and realize that opinions are OK.

cheech,

I am leaning toward the big game head because I do live in East Texas so I will be tying flies for those big ole large mouth bass as well as pan fish and for trout whenever I get the opportunity to fish up in southeastern Oklahoma. My question to you is the stainless steel head a stronger type head. I have and older Regal vise that has been modified with an after market rotary handle and it has a big game head on it that has the 3 slots on it for hooks. The first slot has been chipped I guess from the previous owner trying to shove to large of a hook in the slot. From what I have read the newer Revolution vises only have 2 slots in the head for hooks or maybe it no slots at all I cannot remember. What does your big game head have?

Mine has 2 slots. It holds everything I have thrown at it.

I think the stainless allows them to create more of a sharp point without as much fear of chipping the jaws. Don't quote me on that one, but it's my guess.

I currently tie on a revolution vise and I switch between the stainless jaw and the big game jaw (The ratio is probably 80% stainless to 20% big game.) I was kind of skeptical at first, but I really love the vise due to the ease of use and hook holding power, and it's what I prefer to tie on right now. The only reason I switch to the big game jaw is if I tie something bigger than a size 1.

I've got a Collins Cree; nice cape like all of his stuff. Can't say that it's caught me any more fish than a brown/grizzly mix, barred ginger, tan-dyed grizzly, etc. but it sure looks cool; classy like English Setters, Barbour jackets, wicker creels and Hardy reels (none of which I have).

 

Regards,

Scott

Correct... barred dark ginger mixed with other colors is really really really really good.

Days back, Cree was an almost "give-away" because it was a mutation color and there were no flies that really called for it. Then a video was produced where the fly tyer was describing a one-feather Adams (tied with Cree hackle). Of course, the demand and price of Cree went through the roof! And here we are...

Cree was in demand long before a video... The original Adams fly called for cree hackle, and it's in demand because it's a natural color that can't be dyed and it only happens about 1% of the time. Of those times it happens only a certain percentage will rank highly on the olympic grading scale, and some cree is better than others in regards to deep colors. Another interesting thing that Dr. Whiting was saying was that a cree bird that has a nice cree cape won't usually have a nice cree saddle and vice versa.

I've been using Charlie Collins' barred ginger for years. It is my favorite hackle. The barring isn't quite as dark as grizzly but when fanned out (by being wound around the hook), the effect is really "buggy". I also have a barred dun, which is quite a bit darker, and not as useful to me.

 

Cree is way over rated, but if you can afford it, go for it. It catches way more flytiers than it does fish....

Cree is fun to have.... But I agree that you can achieve similar results with other colors.

I saw you on Instagram!! You were having the iron fly tying thingy too right?

Yep. Just kind of an impromptu "tie-down" before dinner.

I like my Metz barred ginger but must admit it's not as close to as nice as that cree in the photo. My actual ginger cape is about the same tone as that cree is in the dark portions, course it's straight ginger, not barred and it's an old cape now, from back when feathers were never as long as those in the photo.. That bird would give 3 tyers 6 lifetimes worth of feathers at the rate I tie using ginger. I've never owned a cree skin though, it is beautiful...

This is a barred dark ginger.

I love Cree hackle, but Barred Dark Ginger is becoming my favorite... Curtis and I had a chance to visit Whiting Farms, and it was soooo cool!

These threads baffle me. OP asks for opinions and improvements. One guy makes a comment on how to make it better and OP flips out.

One thing I learned a long time ago is that if I want positive feedback on a fly, I show it to my mom. She has never suggested that I make the body of my fly more durable.

Here is some real, non-personal feedback on the video.

1- Film it at a different angle so the person watching can see more of the fly, and less of the hands.

2- When you tie in the braid, tie it in right behind the eyes and tie it back to the bend of the hook. This will give you more of a smooth body when you decide to wrap it forward.

3- Use fewer thread wraps on the fly. You could probably get away with half the thread wraps that you did on this pattern. For most things, two good turns will tie a material down.

4- Become more efficient with the whip finish. It seemed like only every 5th turn of your whip finish would even stay on the hook. The second whip finish completely slipped off the eye of the hook before you pulled it "tight." I'd suggest a tool to whip finish.

This being said, the fly will catch fish. The only reason you should ask for feedback on this forum is to try to get better at tying the actual fly...

Tear Mender or Loctite gel, but tear mender is the absolute best.

I'll chime in here too... It seems that lots of people view Whiting as the company that sells super expensive hackle compared to other brands, but you can get a full bronze cape for just under $60. The rating scale on these capes are something to behold as well. A whiting Bronze will consistently tie many more flies than a higher grade from any other hackle company (I know a guy who did a big research project on it...) The consensus is that Whiting consistently will tie more flies for waaay less money. Think of it as buying the jumbo pack of toilet paper for a little bit more than the cost of a normal pack of toilet paper. At the end of the day you are getting toilet paper for much less $$ per square.

100 packs are some people's cup o' tea, but from a cost perspective, they aren't the best overall value. Keep in mind though, that some people will pay premiums for convenience.

It's not meant to be harsh. It's one mans opinion on what a gurgler is or is not. To me it's not a gurgler. I think there is nothing to learn if everybody simply says great video keep posting them. Why asks for critiques if this is the case. I spent a few decades in the military where our AAR's had to include the good and the bad. For every good there was always a bad, or something that needed improvement. It's the only way to learn and you can't feel negatives are a bad thing.

 

I fish gurglers a lot. They are why I rarely make and fish poppers anymore. I have never found smallmouths, what I use them most for, to be that selective on top. Im sure they will get hit but I doubt they will get hit when a gurgler won't. Personally I don't see how the loop of foam could cause it to ride higher in the water since the added height of foam would not even effect the buoyancy since all or at least a large portion of the added foam is not in the water. If anything it only looks higher in the water simply because the fly has more height. I would also think, if the added foam is in the water it is doing nothing for added buoyancy but is actually pushing the bottom of the fly deeper into the water causing a lower riding fly. I would also think the splash or movement in the water is more effected by the stiffness of the head rather then how much foam is tied on top or how high or low it rides in the water. There is simply no way it has the same aerodynamics as a true gurgler. No way no how with that big air catching loop and twice the amount of foam. Just one mans opinion who is not saying I'm right and your wrong.

 

The OP asks for critiques. I gave him one mans opinion, he can choose to take something away from it or he may disregard it, block me and never respond. It does not matter to me. I like to tell kids what I think they need to hear as compared to what they want to hear. I think it's a great video but I also thinks he needs to become more of a subject matter expert on the patterns he is putting out there presumably so others can learn fly tying. Again, just one mans humble opinion.

I gave you my opinion too... I think you are being way too harsh! I say modify it at will, and those modification need more foam at times. This being said, I realize that you are judging the effectiveness of a gurgler based on your (one person's) opinion.

Here is another thing... If fish eat worms, why are we continually trying to "modify" our catching techniques?

 

I have to ask this, because I am truly wondering what is the definition of a gurgler (sic).

There is the "Gartside Gurgler" (sic) ... but is that the ONLY gurgler (sic) pattern?

Does that mean that EVERY other gurgler (sic) that is not tied EXACTLY like the original is NOT a gurgler (sic) at all?

Do we have to label every gurgler (sic) pattern as a "Gartside Gurgler" (sic) variant?

Is every gurgler (sic) tied, automatically a badly tied "Gartside Gurgler" (sic) if it's not labeled as a "variant"?

 

Flats, I don't always agree with your (sorry, but you are a newbie) opinions and interjections on various topics ... but in this, I think you're fine, since you didn't call it a "Gartside Gurgler" (sic). Leaving the "Gartside" name off, makes it a variant.

 

Sorry for typing in gurgler (sic) so often. But gurgler (sic) is not actually a word, so it is grammatically correct.

To the best of my knowledge there was no such pattern called a gurgler prior to Gartside creating the pattern and naming it the gurgler. So wether or not you call it a gurgler or a Gartside gurgler it's the same thing with or without the name of the creator attached. Anything else is a variant in the same vain as a Clouser minnow. That big loop of foam, in my opinion, is more then a variant. It is a completely different pattern with completely different movement in the water and I will assume it casts like crap. The ease of casting the gurgler is one of the reasons I like to fish a gurgler. If you have ever fished a gurgler, I assume flats has not or has fished it very little, there is absolutely no reason to modify it outside of new materials. It is a pattern that is time tested and proven. To call that a gurgler is misleading to new tyers who want to tie and fish what is normally a time tested and proven fly.

 

This is waaaay too harsh man. Simply calling it a variation is perfectly acceptable. The "loop" of foam actually improves a lot of flies that are tied "gurgler" style especially if the tyer wants the bug to sit higher in the water. I typically do it with 4mm foam and add a loop. The flies cast great and fish great, in fact, the picture that Flytire just posted has the "loop" in the back of the foam that is much more exaggerated than the original.

As far as there being no reason to modify it... I have tied them to be anything from mice to frogs, and subtle modifications to the original were the difference between fish and no fish.

I also (like JSzymczyk) fish streamers more than any other type of fly. I fish them for largemouth and smallmouth bass, trout, salmon and steelhead here in Michigan. I've even fished them for carp, if you can consider a crayfish imitation a streamer.

Ever since Kelly Galloup (formerly of Michigan, more recently come to fame as owner of the Slide Inn in Montana) and Bob Linsenman published their book Modern Streamers for Trophy Trout, which popularized their method of fishing very large (4-8" long) streamers on sinking lines, a lot of the streamers that you see in magazine articles and in fly shop bins have tended toward those larger sizes. While most fishermen know that there is some credence to the old "big flies for big fish" maxim, the truth is that those gigantic articulated streamers that look so sexy in photos or in the fly shop have to be fished in certain types of conditions and situations (mainly from a boat in big, moving water), and they demand somewhat specialized tackle--heavy rods, sinking or sink-tip lines, etc. Day in and day out, I would be willing to bet that most fish caught on streamers are caught on much more "normal" (for lack of a better word) - sized flies, which I would define as those tied on size 4-10, 3x-4x-long streamer hooks.

I'm looking at my streamer boxes right now. I have 4 of them--one holds sizes 8-10 for small-stream trout, shallow-water bass and bluegills; these flies top out at around 2 inches in length. Two of the boxes are stuffed full of size 4-6 buggers, various zonker and bunny leech variations, and bendbacks. One box has unweighted or lightly-weighted versions, the other has the same flies with coneheads or dumbbell eyes. Those flies typically run 3-4 inches in length. Then I have my "meat" box. These are the big boys--nothing tied on smaller than a #2 hook, and most of them are articulated (jointed) flies with two hooks. The smallest streamer in that box is about 5" long, and the biggest one is a little over 6".

In a typical season, the two boxes of middle-size (#4 & #6 hooks) streamers will need replenishing at least once each. The real small stuff will typically last the whole season but need topping up over the winter, and the meat box goes whole seasons without being opened--there's just no use for it if I can't get up north to some of the bigger trout rivers.

BTW, you absolutely can fish streamers in small creeks. Pitch them upstream into deep holes and retrieve them downstream faster than the current. You won't catch a lot of fish doing that, but the ones that do come racing out of those holes after a "fleeing" streamer will be the bigger fish.

I will also sometimes fish a small bucktail or woolly bugger as a dropper off of a floating bass bug. That trick has paid off a couple of times this summer.

Bottom line, streamer fishing is fun, and there's not a fish that swims that won't at least chase one if you catch him in the right mood.

Big streamers only work in big water... I promise! No fish in moderate sized water that will eat a big big fly Don't experiment either!!!

I bought "cheap" ($10 ea.) ceramic-tube bobbins from Cabelas and had the same problem with them as that described by OP.

 

The only bobbins I use now are the original S&M bobbins (the one on the top in the photo; the one on the bottom is a later version offered by Wasatch Tools) -- hard to find but hard to beat. I don't even break 16/0 with them, and I like the way they nestle in the palm while tying.

 

 

I have some of those S&M bobbins and I'm not a fan. You must have gotten some good tubes because all mine are good at is storing wire (Both the originals, and the Wasatch ones.)

Had a fly tying buddy suggest tying a deer hair bug using Kevlar thread in this situation. The Kevlar will "Deburr" the inside of the tube.

It might "burr" other parts too. Best to just go with Ceramic.

Also... FWIW... Kevlar thread is slowly dying with all of the GSP threads out there. 200D GSP thread is unmatched for big bulky deer hair flies.

I have used them all and I keep going back to the good old Griffin Supreme ceramic tip. It might cost more than a house brand, but I have found them to be even more reliable than even Rite or Stonfo bobbins. This being said, I'm patiently awaiting my bobbins from Loon outdoors... Those have the potential to become my new favorite.

In tools, you can go mega cheap on most things, but I highly recommend getting a high quality bobbin.

Why not start this thread with a pic of a fly????

Here's a Street Sweeper

Polish CDC trumps all. I just got some packs of it, and the quality and length are insane....

I invented that Cream!!!!

The Griffin Montana Pro vise (non rotary) has the same jaw that the Mongoose has, but it's like $80 or so. That jaw will literally hold anything to a 100% lock down.

They had some issues with the makeup of their 30D threads, so they came out with 50D (which is both black and white.) I have had the same issue that the OP has had with the 30D, so I switched to 50D and it's much better. Not really much thicker thread without the issues.

I started with the Pro Sportfisher system. They make awesome stuff.