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DFoster

"Waders are a rip off"

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I have 3 sets of waders.  My Simms are over 15 years old, the first day I had them on, I snagged them on a thorn.  Used the included UV patch kit, while in the stream, they have not leaked since.  I have a waist high pair from Cabelas, that are also about 15 years old.  Never had a leak,  These are now stored in Utah for my western fishing.  I bought a cheap pair for use in Florida, that only get used for walk in Shad fishing.  Three or 4 years old, and have had no problems yet.

From my experience, I don't agree with the video's conclusions.    What I do think are "rip offs" are thousand dollar fly rods.  If I can cast far enough with a two hundred dollar fly rod, I know I won't cast 5 times as far with a rod selling for 5 times more.  

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On 12/8/2022 at 10:18 AM, utyer said:

I have 3 sets of waders.  My Simms are over 15 years old, the first day I had them on, I snagged them on a thorn.  Used the included UV patch kit, while in the stream, they have not leaked since.  I have a waist high pair from Cabelas, that are also about 15 years old.  Never had a leak,  These are now stored in Utah for my western fishing.  I bought a cheap pair for use in Florida, that only get used for walk in Shad fishing.  Three or 4 years old, and have had no problems yet.

From my experience, I don't agree with the video's conclusions.    What I do think are "rip offs" are thousand dollar fly rods.  If I can cast far enough with a two hundred dollar fly rod, I know I won't cast 5 times as far with a rod selling for 5 times more.  

I'm really optimistic that my Orvis Pros will hold out for a good long while, so far they have been great

When it comes to high end rods, in the tight quarters of overgrown New England small steams casting distance is pretty far down the list of great fly rod attributes . On the rivers I frequent accuracy from 15' to 30' is far more important than casting distance.   I think everyone (except for rod manufacturers) would agree that accuracy has a lot more to do with technique than the rod.   I few years ago I found a top of the line Hardy on consignment at a fly shop as part of a rod and reel combo.   The owner was asking $400 for both.  The rod looked like it had never been used and listed for $1100 when new.  I bought it as an upgrade to my $180 TFO Signature II and honestly I was disappointed that I couldn't discern much of a difference from one to the other when it came to casting.  The Hardy clearly had better components and workmanship but is that worth the difference in price?  Fine tackle is nice and I'm sure an elite caster would have noticed a difference but no one ever accused me of being one.   

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18 minutes ago, DFoster said:

had better components and workmanship but is that worth

No but that is just my opinion, I was told that few could tell the difference in casting, however the difference in weight, components, cost of blank (where manufactured) and the largest cost was warranty and advertising (brand name) I also own some high-end rods that do not match the performance of my ability level. Maybe I need to spend more time to develop my casting to a higher level, but it has served my purpose up to this point.

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1 hour ago, cphubert said:

No but that is just my opinion, I was told that few could tell the difference in casting, however the difference in weight, components, cost of blank (where manufactured) and the largest cost was warranty and advertising (brand name) I also own some high-end rods that do not match the performance of my ability level. Maybe I need to spend more time to develop my casting to a higher level, but it has served my purpose up to this point.

And some people just like nice things- I'm one.  I always try to buy the best I can afford, but like many things that little bit of extra quality can cost much more.   I don't see my self paying full price for an elite rod any time soon, for me personally it would be tough to justify when my casting is likely never going to equal the rod.  That Hardy IMO just happened to be a great deal.  The reel with it was a Cascapedia.  

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17 hours ago, Czob said:

@silvercreek

Thanks for posting that.  I bought a pair of $300 Orvis Ultra Lights and after the 6th time out on the river I thought they were leaking. (It turns out it was probably just condensation).  Anyway I brought them back to the dealer and because of covid Orvis was shut down and not offering repairs.  The deal they offered was (A) a brand new pair of Ultra Lights on them but  I would have to wait 6 months to receive.  Or (B) kick in another $100 and they would hand me a brand new set of Orvis Pro's.  The Pro's at the time listed for about $600 I would be getting them for roughly $400 and I could have them immediately.  I chose the Pro's and so far they have been great though given the price I definitely find my self being a lot more careful where I walk and fishing near shore.

I have bought 5 pairs of waders at this point as a river angler.  Not one time has a dealer ever mentioned anything about condensation.  I guess they want to sell the idea you'll be 100% dry.?   Well that's what I expected until a member (Silver creek) on this forum brought up a point of basic physics that I embarrassingly overlooked.  That is any part of my breathable waders that is submerged is no longer "breathing" and that a typical trout stream is far colder than my body temp 98 degrees = the water in the air inside my waders will condense= water inside my waders.  I'd be willing to bet lot of waders are returned as leakers mistakenly.

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1 hour ago, DFoster said:

@silvercreek

I have bought 5 pairs of waders at this point as a river angler.  Not one time has a dealer ever mentioned anything about condensation.  I guess they want to sell the idea you'll be 100% dry.?   Well that's what I expected until a member (Silver creek) on this forum brought up a point of basic physics that I embarrassingly overlooked.  That is any part of my breathable waders that is submerged is no longer "breathing" and that a typical trout stream is far colder than my body temp 98 degrees = the water in the air inside my waders will condense= water inside my waders.  I'd be willing to bet lot of waders are returned as leakers mistakenly.

DFoster is referring to the phenomena of "Wet Out." I made this post many years ago and I hope the links still work.

"I wash waders to prevent "wet out" which occurs when the DWR coating no longer works and the "breathable" waders can no longer breath.

ALL breathable waders will eventually need to be washed and have the DWR renewed. If you don't the water coats the outside of the waders and the film of water prevents water vapor that is INSIDE the waders form passing through the waders to the outside. Some of you may not realize the with a functioning DWR, breathable waders can actually "breath" underwater when the outside of the wader is colder than the inside which is usually the case when fishing for trout.

"That’s what any breathable fabric does: it acts as a one-way door for water vapor. Even better, it continues to work under water, so long as the exterior liquid is substantially cooler than the body temperature of the wearer."

https://midcurrent.com/gear/breathing-underwater/

What happens is the Durable Water Repellency (DWR) coating on the exterior fabric of waders gets dirty, impeding the DWR that causes water to bead up. 

Why does a breathable fabric need water repellency? Because when a Gortex garment is coated with water, the water vapor that passes through the Gortex membrane is trapped from escaping to the outside air. So the garment cannot breath. The garment acts just like a solid sheet of plastic and your perspiration is trapped and condenses on the inside of the garment and on your clothing. This is a phenomenon called "wet out". 

"DWR (durable water repellent): This substance is applied to the exterior of the face fabric. It causes water to bead up and fall off rather than absorb. A high-quality DWR keeps the face fabric from wetting out and maintains breathability. Worn-out or low-quality DWR coatings are the primary reason that waterproof garments fail. A “wetted out” waterproof garment cannot breathe."

https://thetrek.co/waterproof-fabrics/

Read what Gortex says.

https://www.gore-tex.com/restoring-water-repellency

 "You can restore the garment’s water repellency by applying a topical water repellency restorative (DWR treatment) for outdoor fabrics, available at your local outdoor retailer. We do not recommend wash-in treatments, as they can hinder your garment's breathability."

Here is a primer on how to care for breathable garments by REI.

Rainwear: Durable Water Repellent (DWR) Care

I use Nikwax TX.Direct. It has performed well for me. The product you use to wash your waders is important. It should be a powder and not a liquid, and it should be unscented. That is to prevent any detergent residues that would interfere with the DWR application or seal the Gortex pores. I use Ivory Snow unscented powder. Alternatively, you can use a residue free product like Sport-Wash.

To use the Nikwax TX.Direct, wash your wader or rainwear and rinse well. Hang it up outside and allow the water to drip off. While still damp, spray the wader or garment with Nikwax TX.Direct and cover all areas. Then put in your dryer and dry on the "Permanent Press Low Heat Cycle." Put the suspenders of the waders into a sock to protect them while the DWR sets.

Follow the manufacturer's direction if you use another DWR.

The way a DWR works is to form molecular chains which project outward from the fabric surface. This causes the water to "bead" on the surface because of the surface tension of water.*This is the same way that a lotus leaf *repels water."

726102943_ScreenShot2023-01-30at9_12_33AM.png.57934e16e1c9765045f5b14d625cba33.png

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, SilverCreek said:

DFoster is referring to the phenomena of "Wet Out." I made this post many years ago and I hope the links still work.

"I wash waders to prevent "wet out" which occurs when the DWR coating no longer works and the "breathable" waders can no longer breath.

ALL breathable waders will eventually need to be washed and have the DWR renewed. If you don't the water coats the outside of the waders and the film of water prevents water vapor that is INSIDE the waders form passing through the waders to the outside. Some of you may not realize the with a functioning DWR, breathable waders can actually "breath" underwater when the outside of the wader is colder than the inside which is usually the case when fishing for trout.

"That’s what any breathable fabric does: it acts as a one-way door for water vapor. Even better, it continues to work under water, so long as the exterior liquid is substantially cooler than the body temperature of the wearer."

https://midcurrent.com/gear/breathing-underwater/

What happens is the Durable Water Repellency (DWR) coating on the exterior fabric of waders gets dirty, impeding the DWR that causes water to bead up. 

Why does a breathable fabric need water repellency? Because when a Gortex garment is coated with water, the water vapor that passes through the Gortex membrane is trapped from escaping to the outside air. So the garment cannot breath. The garment acts just like a solid sheet of plastic and your perspiration is trapped and condenses on the inside of the garment and on your clothing. This is a phenomenon called "wet out". 

"DWR (durable water repellent): This substance is applied to the exterior of the face fabric. It causes water to bead up and fall off rather than absorb. A high-quality DWR keeps the face fabric from wetting out and maintains breathability. Worn-out or low-quality DWR coatings are the primary reason that waterproof garments fail. A “wetted out” waterproof garment cannot breathe."

https://thetrek.co/waterproof-fabrics/

Read what Gortex says.

https://www.gore-tex.com/restoring-water-repellency

 "You can restore the garment’s water repellency by applying a topical water repellency restorative (DWR treatment) for outdoor fabrics, available at your local outdoor retailer. We do not recommend wash-in treatments, as they can hinder your garment's breathability."

Here is a primer on how to care for breathable garments by REI.

Rainwear: Durable Water Repellent (DWR) Care

I use Nikwax TX.Direct. It has performed well for me. The product you use to wash your waders is important. It should be a powder and not a liquid, and it should be unscented. That is to prevent any detergent residues that would interfere with the DWR application or seal the Gortex pores. I use Ivory Snow unscented powder. Alternatively, you can use a residue free product like Sport-Wash.

To use the Nikwax TX.Direct, wash your wader or rainwear and rinse well. Hang it up outside and allow the water to drip off. While still damp, spray the wader or garment with Nikwax TX.Direct and cover all areas. Then put in your dryer and dry on the "Permanent Press Low Heat Cycle." Put the suspenders of the waders into a sock to protect them while the DWR sets.

Follow the manufacturer's direction if you use another DWR.

The way a DWR works is to form molecular chains which project outward from the fabric surface. This causes the water to "bead" on the surface because of the surface tension of water.*This is the same way that a lotus leaf *repels water."

726102943_ScreenShot2023-01-30at9_12_33AM.png.57934e16e1c9765045f5b14d625cba33.png

 

 

 

Thank you for that Silver-  I had no idea wader's breathed under water.  So when the dampness gets to be to damp and washing and drying don't fix the problem it's time to reapply the DWR?  Far cheaper than buying new waders!

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$.02. 73 and pot gutted putting on waders/boots is a chore. I’m not spending $300 on any breathable SF waders Plenty $100 that are basically the same matl. The seams just don’t last. (Duckin use neoprene boot foots). My problem is the boots. I’ve got an old pair of side zippered Hodgemans that are still going strong. Felt with studs. Had to go to rubber and Dede found some in France/England(?) that are rubber w/studs I put in and front zipper/Velcro straps. Tough when you gotta use a sock helper🥴. Laugh but you might get old and punchy too

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