Choices

[Gene L 0]

Say you have an acquittance who thinks he's interested in tying flies.  He's not sold on it so he's not willing to spend a huge amount of money until he gets his feet wet, so to speak.  He's retired with a good retirement program and when buying stuff, he generally is willing to spend the money, but without committing  a ruinous amount of money to begin with.  He knows nothing, but thinks he'd like to be able to tie dry flies and standbys like Wooly Buggers (actually, that's what you infer.) He gives you $600 and asks you to set him up, vise, materials, hooks  and a quality "kit."  

So what do you do?  What are your choices?  Where do you begin?

[Poopdeck 0]

If he is a friend I invite him to tie flies with me. If still interested he can take home one of my vises, a set of tools and whatever materials needed for him to continue his journey. When ready he can spend his own money on whatever tools he thinks he’s gonna like. I’m not taking anyone’s money to go shopping for them. 

[Gene L 0]

OK, let's reimagine this.  Let's eliminate the friend/acquaintance factor.  I'm only interested in how the $600 is spent by an experienced tyer.  Tools, feathers, etc. No taking him in hand and tying flies to see if he likes it; he's pretty much determined he'll give it a try.  For argument's factor, he's determined to spend the money; if not with you then he'll buy a prepackaged kit.

[DFoster 0]

Hi Gene I think I would start with a Renzetti Traveler vise and a tool kit from Dr. Slick. They are quality items that he will be able to sell if it turns tying isn't his thing.  Also the Renzetti is extremely versatile and can be had in the low $200 range.  Let's say for arguments sake tools and the vise are $300.  I would spend the other $300 on materials based on the type of flies he plans to use.  My advice to this person would be to pick a target species and purchase the standard materials needed for the flies for that species. Information and local fly shop could provide.  Using Trout as an example my list might look something like this-

Hooks-  Don't start off too small so maybe #12s.  One pack of each, nymph, dry fly and streamer hooks.

Thread- #70, a spool each of black, brown and olive.

Wire/tinsel- I would go with a couple of spools in the standard colors gold, silver and sized for #12 hooks.

Weight- I would go with a spool of .015 wire.  Beads will come later.

Dubbings - I would go with a couple of the variety packs, maybe ultra fine for dries and a caddis/nymph pack.

Fur- To start with you really don't need much more than a patch of comparadun deer and maybe a variety pack of dyed buck tail.

Feathers-  I would say you got to have pheasant tail/turkey tail, small packs of partridge, duck and hen.  Also few of the small value packs of dry fly hackle, I think I would go with ginger and grizzly to get started.

This is more or less  what I bought when I started out.  I'm proud to say that through the years I only have purchased a minimum of materials that I don't really use.  Stuff that as a novice I thought I would need but as it turns out I didn't.

Gene as you know this is just a basics and obviously the list would be very different if were using Bass or Pike and/or salt as the example. But for someone just looking to start with a $600 budget I think they could get this set up.   I think the that key to not being completely overwhelmed at the start is to pick one species.  Better still is to start with 3 or 4 patterns for that species.  Just my opinion.

 

 

 

[cphubert 0]

Hi Gene, I think Dean's post is spot on. Great vise and advise for the money and materials, easy to add to later. my 2 cents

[Poopdeck 0]

Oh sorry, I didn’t realize it was a hypothetical question. I’m cheap and I do not believe for one second that expensive tools tie better flies or faster flies. I also KNOW that cheap tools,  contrary to what is commonly reported, do not break any more then more expensive tools.  Everything on my list is what I’ve been using for a long time. This tool list will last a lifetime and will never need to be upgraded unless he wants to. If so, it will be for want not because he has to. This leaves plenty for materials which I won’t list, extra fly boxes, glue and whatnot.

Griffin superior with base $85.00. Why because griffin jaws have hook holding ability and rotation is way overrated in my humble opinion. Looks cool but not worth an extra 150. I have two rotating vises that don’t ever get rotated. I have no need but I’m sure others find it useful. Resale on this vise will show a lower loss over a more expensive vise. 

(3) Terra bobbins $9.99 * 3 = $29.97 just because I like multiple bobbins

Terra whip finisher $5.00 

Terra hair stacker $8.95

scissors $15.00. Take your pick, plenty to choose from for 15 bucks or less and they all work just fine. 

Bodkin - the cheaper the better - $5.00

Stonefo small hackle pliers (with spring) $10.00 just a preference of mine

Clip on hat magnifiers -$10.00, because this hypothetical fella is retired so I’m thinking old eyes. 
$15.00 Funny tee-shirt that’s says “I might have a fly tying problem.”

 

[niveker 0]

I agree for the most part with what Poopdeck says, as I'm the cheapest bastard around when he's not here, but I do enjoy tying on my Renzetti and would have a hard time giving it up, but it doesn't help me tie better flies.  

Even after spending money on a quality vise  

$225

you should have no problem getting the basics with the balance. 

A 25 count of Mustad streamer hooks in #8 and 10 for buggers  #12, 14 for dries

$25

brass beads to match streamer hooks

$7

2 packs of chenille in color of your choice

$8

2 packs of marabou to match chenille

$9

one wooly bugger saddle pack

$12

one black and one white spool of thread, markers laying around the house for different colors

$7

two basic bobbin holders

$7

any old bodkin will do

$3

basic scissors

$15

a roll of lead wire, a roll of copper wire

$7

super fine dubbing dispenser

$14

Whiting 100 packs in grizzly and brown x4

$90

Grand total $429

That should keep him tying some pretty crappy looking flies that will still catch fish with plenty left over for some flash, rubber legs, craft foam, nail polish, glue, hackle pliers, or whatever.  

 

[DFoster 0]

 I agree that expensive tools do not tie faster or better flies but cheap tools can frustrate people to the point they quit.  Hook holding is obviously the key feature in a vise. There are inexpensive vises that will hold a hook just fine and I certainly won't say someone is wrong for buying one to saving some money.   Under buying to save a few bucks seems to always come back to haunt me, in the end costing me money and stress.

Here is an example- Years ago I bought a miter saw to install crown molding in our home.   I saved a $125 not buying the more expensive Dewalt.  For years I struggled to install the crown and I couldn't understand why.  My wife and I are both somewhat of perfectionist so close wasn't good enough.  Crown is tough and I doubted my skills for a long time.  After ruining many pieces of molding I finally resorted to cutting small templates to get the angle perfect through trial and error and then transferring that angle to the actual piece.  One day  I put my speed square against the saw fence and blade.  The right side was a perfect 90 degrees but the left side was 2 degrees of at 88!  The fence is a molded piece with no way to adjust it or bend it. It left the factory just that way.  Why hadn't I checked it years earlier?  Because I just couldn't fathom that someone would produce a miter saw with a fence not at a perfect 90.  A pro probably would have caught the flaw years earlier- I but I'm not a pro.  Buying cheap cost me a lot of money on ruined materials, hours of frustration and made me start to hate carpentry. Lesson learned the hard way.   I work for a living and I don't have money to burn but these days I always buy the best that I can afford.  From chain saws to fly tackle and everything in between. 

So when Gene gave us $600 hypothetical bucks to work with and considering that top of the line vises are now $600 and up I don't consider a $225 Traveler expensive.  My reasoning for recommending the Traveler was that If our hypothetical student takes to tying he'll never need to buy another vise unless like me he wants to.  A Griffin Superior may be a fine vise and resale may show a lower loss but I believe that a Traveler would be much easier to find a buyer for. ( I brought mine to a fly shop intending to put in on consignment, a guy saw me carrying it and bought it cash in the parking lot). 

 And yes- fly tyers don't need a rotary vises, actually we don't need a vise either- But vises sure make tying a whole lot easier as does a rotary.   Rotary makes it easy to check what's going on with the far side of the fly and in certain situations it's easier to wrap materials using it.

I'm not going to criticize anyone for being cheap or frugal and we all have to buy within our means.  Speaking for myself I will say that saving money doesn't enter my mind if it buys quality.

 

[Gene L 0]

The reason I posted this is because when I bought the Patriot vise there were materials and tools included.  They weren't cheap tools and equipment, either.  The price on the vise box was $145...that's in 1995 prices.  I say 1995 because that's when I bought my  Patriot.  Today, the $145 would be $300, yes, that much.  I don't remember what in a Traveler cost in 95, but I doubt it would be that much.  I believed at the time I was getting a quality in a "rotating" vise.  Being green, I didn't know about the advantages of a trut e rotary vise.

I chose $600, because I believe the tools and materials that came with the vise I bought last month would be worth $300.  It became apparent that a wise, experienced fly tyer chose the vise/materials/tools.  I think he bought these because the components had never been used.

As for tools, except for a whip finish tool, they were complete, from a good pair of scissors, Dr. Slick, to a bodkin.  A hair stacker, bobbin, six spools of thread in different colors.  Although there were nymph hooks, I think there was a strong dry fly composition.  Dry fly  Mustad packs of 100 in 12 and 14 and a lesser amount of 10s, which had been opened and a few missing.  A pack of muskrat dubbing, another of caddis green. A Metz Multi Pack in size medium which has about 40 hackles in dun, brown, and grizzly, size 12-16. The feathers are cut from larger necks and are about 5" long.  A good idea for starter tyers.  The price was $26; today, about $50.  I feel pretty sure Whiting could have offered better hackle, but not packaged this way.  It was a good idea. Three or four cards of chenille but no wire or lead, nor any marabou for a Wooly Bugger.

Included was one of those foam tool caddies and a hair stacker.  And a tube of wax.

There was a good patch of deer belly fur and another of dyed deer hair.  It was the only component that had been opened.  Two or three tufts had been removed.

I realize I'm inferring a lot here, but my conclusions (not proven) is that someone chose these materials and tools for someone else.  It's a starter kit, although a well chosen one of pretty high quality.  Something prevented the giftee from using it, however. 

Hence the reason I asked you guys to make estimates of what YOU would recommend as I think this "kit" was chosen by a pro for a new tyer.

[Poopdeck 0]

When I say tools I meant things like scissors, bobbins, etc….  The vise certainly matters so I would never recommend a cheap store branded knockoff. The vise I recommended is a quality vise with excellent hook holding ability, it just doesn’t rotate. Also, fly tying is not crown molding. Crown molding is way more difficult and requires the best tools. I have a wiz-bang dewalt sliding compound miter saw. 

[DFoster 0]

2 hours ago, Poopdeck said:

WheI have a wiz-bang dewalt sliding compound miter saw. 

Ha!! A dewalt. I knew you weren’t as cheap as claim to be!