Selling Flies

[nightfish 0]

Softhackle,

 

The reason, in a roundabout way, that Rainy's has production in Thailand, is because the average US worker is lazy and expensive.

 

The long story is this.

 

Rainy used to own a fly shop in Logan, UT, and she also sold flies by catalog (keep in mind that this was long before the internet). In fact, Rainy's flies have been commercially available since 1971. Her pattern selection was around 200 or so, and they were tied by Rainy and a small staff of college students. Fast forward to the 1990's, and along comes some 3M execs looking for a hobby business. They bought up the rights to several catalog listings, Rainy's included, lumped them together as Streamworks, and distributed them within the 3M/Scientific Angler's lineup. Rainy was hired by 3M as factory manager for the Chaing Mai facility. 3M eventually lost interest in the fly venture, and sold the whole shebang to Rainy, including the facility. After comparing the expeience of using local US tyers compared to Thai tyers, it was quite clear that the best consistent product and production capacity was going to be had by staying in Thailand.

 

Regarding the hourly income, yes, it is roughly eqivalent to a $17/hr US job. That doesn't mean they're getting $17 dollars and converting it to Baht. It's in relation to their own economy. A serving of rice, for example, would cost you the US equivalent of $0.10 in a restaurant. To them, it'd be equal in value to a cheeseburger (say $2.50). I guess the best way to say it, is in relation to their economy, they have an above average income.

[Faster Fish 0]

Everbody just step away from the keyboard and take a very deep breath. Lets just get back to having fun and learning what we can from each other.

 

Randy

[nightfish 0]

Trout Bum,

 

I guess you got on board late. Alex edited his posts (mucho appreciado dude). His original words, in conjuction with a sole link to a single company's website, could have created an unfair negative connotation to Rainy's specifically, and the Thailand tying industry in general. I would say that there is currently no potentially slanderous material in his posts.

 

I guess you also get to have your opinion...how about me? I didn't threaten anybody, and I have no grounds on which to sue...I am not a partner of Rainy's, I am an independent contractor. I posted that it could be construed as slander as friendly information, hoping he would change his posts. I also posted that after discussing it with the folks at Rainy's, and they felt that it could be construed as slander. They aren't in the business of taking legal action, but they have every right to protect and defend their reputation. If you knew them, you would know that they would rather settle things before they become a problem rather than arm waving and making threats.

 

I'm glad the mods on this site aren't like other boards, locking & chopping threads just because of a difference of opinion or a misunderstanding of intention. Thanks for letting me get some facts out.

[Alex C. 0]

Basicly I questioned the age of the workers in the companies photo, and spelled thailand-tieland. I only edited it because I didn't want my post to come across as an attack on one particular company. Just wanted to show people what they're up against.

[nightfish 0]

Yep, I got that that was your intention with the editing. I appreciate it.

 

Going back to what I perceive now as your original intent, you're right...a US homebased commercial tyer is up against a giant when it comes to offshore production houses. Nowadays many shops would rather buy from the big suppliers, sometimes for lower prices, regular delivery, consistency or for the convenience of getting everything in one stop. I love shops that buy from local tyers...it means they're in tune with the local market, and they're helping keep a craft alive in the states. I'm a tyer myself...that's why I visit this board, and I try to keep business out of forums as much as possible, because they are a place of recreation for me and because I don't want to be seen as someone that only posts to pimp.

 

Anyway, more power to the local tyer. I hope they will always be part of the industry.

[MTtyer 0]

This hit a nerve and might be difficult to address and keep it clean:

 

-I don't want my butcher to be a vegetarian

-I don't want my car built by someone who doesn't know how to drive

-I don't want my blue jeans designed by a nudist

and I wouldn't buy an Adams tied by someone that doesn't flyfish for trout.

 

I have no reason, other than honest skepticism, to doubt the above posts...and I don't mean to be a smarta$$, ....but....

There are plenty of qualified American tiers around. I am one. I have 25+ years experience.

Will this company pay me plumber's wages to tie for them? When do I start?

Assuming all of this is credible and and employees are treated so well, why is this company in the Orient and not employing qualified American tiers?

I've been an average proud American worker all of my life and didn't realize that I was "lazy and expensive".

Why, when a fellow American tier innocently/understandably objects to what used to be an honest way to make a modest living being degraded to a hobby for many because of outsourcing, does he get threats of slander?

 

This should be an interesting response.

[nightfish 0]

There are lots of US tyers who sell to shops. There just isn't a company that can produce enough product to service the nationwide market. I'd love to have this thread turn in to something productive.

 

Let's saddle the horse from behind...answer these questions in order:

-how much do you want to sell your adams for?

-who do you want to sell your adams to?

-how much of your retail price do you expect as profit?

[jbarnick 0]

he merely said that they are paid what their economy equivalent is...not that you would atually be paid the same amount...Anyhoo...I personally would never place a non-locally tied fly in my fly box. If I dont tie it, I better be assured one of the fly shop workers tied it on down time or they have a local tier making the pattern. I fly fish to relax...and by fly fish I am including fly tying, and rod building as well as fishing. Even if I had not decided to learn how to tie, I would still only buy locally. I dont care how well employees are treated...if it is overseas it doesnt belong in my fly box. There is a lot to be said about supporting local economy...

 

As for the three questions...kinda hard for me to answer since I am not currently nor am I interested in tying commercially. I DO know that the people that use my flys other than me are friends that fish the same waters as me and if i tied in bulk I would only be interested in distributing locally

[flymaker1 0]

Very interesting thread. I was enjoying this "debate" right up the the " lazy US worker" statement. :cursing:. I have been working since the age 11 ( I'm 36 ), not just flipping burgers, laying sod, demo work, herding cattle, you know stuff where hard work is mandatory. That lazy statement needs to be edited. I should step away before :gunsmilie: I say what is really on my mind.

[MTtyer 0]

This forum is for exchanges of ideas in a positive, fun manner. I'll say this and not comment further.

 

Your attempts at defending outsourcing, in my guess, won't get you very far with American tyers.

Of course it is more cost effective to move a company overseas and employ workers with lower standards of living.

The controversy over outsourcing has never been a question of what is more profitable (outsourcing is, of course), it has always been a question of what is good for the American worker.

Certainly you're not surprised at average American workers that are being called "expensive and lazy" getting a bit defensive?

 

No response is necessary, it's apparent where you stand.

 

 

[nightfish 0]

Very interesting thread. I was enjoying this "debate" right up the the " lazy US worker" statement. :cursing:. I have been working since the age 11 ( I'm 36 ), not just flipping burgers, laying sod, demo work, herding cattle, you know stuff where hard work is mandatory. That lazy statement needs to be edited. I should step away before :gunsmilie: I say what is really on my mind.

 

 

Ok, how about we re-state the difference between US and Thai workers as having different work ethics. The Thai tyers are currently working 10 hours a day and 6 days a week. The only reason they're working like that is because Rainy's won't let them put in 18/7 like they want to. How many US workers would be willing to do that? Just like the Thai economy is different from ours, so is their work ethic.

 

BTW, I'm a former Teamster (still one at heart). I know how to work hard, and I saw plenty of people who did and didn't alongside me. I also said earlier in this thread that I'm all for the US production tyer.

 

[Jon G 0]

Ok I have a question,

 

I checked Rainy's dealer site and found that 2 of the local large outfitters ( Grindstone in waterdown , On and Troutfitters in Fergus, On) in my area both carry or carried these flies at one time. I would love to tie all my own flies but quite frankly I don't have enough time or energy sometimes, I then go over to the store and say to Keith or John whats working and they show me some and I either buy all their recommendations or pick ones that interest myself or my son ( ie a blue foam dragonfly). These have all worked.

 

Why would I want to ask wherethey were made?

 

Yes I would rather support a local tier but to be quite honest I figured that they probably were tied by a local. Joe Penich comes to mind won one of the international Fly tying competions last year. If they work thats good enough for me if its a local great if its not... not so great but I would rather catch fish tghan watch pretty ripple on the stream or pond all day.

 

 

Just to stir the Pot a little . I manage a Brake &Muffler shop in town. I puchase for example Brake rotors or a Job do I look for the biggest bang for my buck ... Yes. i can buy a domestically made rotor for X coconuts that rotor now sells on the job for 200 coconuts. do I get the job .... maybe. i Can by an offshore rotor for 1/4 X coconuts and sell for 100 coconuts. do I get the Job .... probably, do I make as much of a profit as I should... yes. Am I confident that the customer won't be back yelling about poor quality.... Yes.

 

 

Should the fly shop Owner's make a profit Yes. Will they continue to sell the offshore Flies if they don't work .. No. The fly shops around this area get little enough business as it isjudging by the quantity of stores. This is a major fly fishing area the Canadian nationals were held in the grand river at fergus last summeer.

 

 

For what its worth

 

 

Jon

[wilcara 0]

Stores sell imported flies because they can be supplied in large quantities at reliable intervals, are cheap, and are consistently similar looking.

 

Asian/African/Indian tyers are good copyers, not fishers.

 

Nobody is going to pay $10 or so to buy a fly just beacause it is tied by a local, so he can live at a moderate level of income. They are without doubt better flies. If buyers were prepared to pay that, I can guarantee that US and Oz would have extremely viable home based tying enterprizes. Let us not try to pretend that this is about anything but price, and capitalizing on some peoples lower standard of living.

 

Stores sell imported flies because they can afford to double and quadruple the price to make a profit.

 

I have a friend who is a pro tyer, and another who imports and sells flies in his fishing retail business.

[nightfish 0]

By the way, I just want to make it clear that the opinions I'm expressing are mine, and not those of Rainy's. I also want to state that Rainy's is a Utah (yes, that's actually in America) based, family owned company.

[fly time 0]

Nightfish, I work construction, and am a skilled laborer, and I make 7.50hr, I worked this past July 4, in 109 degree weather, and often work 12hr days, I also live on a farm, I would love to see you live one week in my shoes, dont think ya could do it!!!! the lazy comment struck a nerve with me as well, and if the Tahi folks had the work ethic that we did in the US, then they would be up there us with their economy.

 

Granted they may be hard workers, but do they work in the rain, snow, sleet, hot, cold, outside? have you ever been to a coal mine? I would love to see you come to my state, and call us lazy it would have interresting results I tie flies for my local flyshop for extra cash, and charge 50cents per fly, for a traditional dry, and 75 cents for streamers, and 1.00 for bass and pike flies, I do it cause I love to tie, for me its not a job, but a passion, and whats my reward? to catch, and know that folks are cathcing fish on my flies, hell if I didnt pay for materials I would give the things away, simply cause I love to tie flies and fish, can your employees say that? :dunno:

 

I am not responding cause I feel that they take jobs from Americans, Im just saying I would not buy their flies, and would give away 50 of my tied with pride flies to a fisherman, just to keep him from buying overseas flies!!

 

PS. if ya would like to place an order for some flies, just shoot me a PM. :j_k:

 

 

Dustin.