Flies Falling Apart

[neoFLYte 0]

First, I have been fly-fishing and tying for nearly a year now. I have a problem with my self-tied flies lacking durability. I haven't fished with "bought" flies, so I don't have experience for comparison. It seems like a fair number of my flies come apart at the head end after several uses. I am not bullwhipping the flies at the backcast/forward cast transition. I use a Matarelli-style whip finisher and usually tie 3 whip-finish knots. Most of the time I use Griff's "Thin" cement and apply 3 coats over the head threads. I have also been using Griff's Thick and Rumpf lately, but I'm nor sure that there has been much of a difference. So... either it's "normal" for flies to eventually come apart, or I'm not using enough, or the right kind of head cement, or... what?

 

Any suggestions/comments welcome!

 

Thanks,

NeoFLYte

Austin TX

[Flyweaver 0]

Are you leaving enough room behind the eye, at least 1 eye diameter, are you using enough tension, keeping head size small and using right diam. thread? I hardly use cement, only whip finish and rarely have trouble. Best I can do without seeing your flies.

[Fred H. 0]

Sometimes less is more. I have seen tyers have similar problems with large thread heads comming apart.Most times the problem is the tyer trying to secure too much material at once near the head. This subsequintly causes the head to be large enough for the thread to want to roll on itself and become loose. As you tie in material near the head ensure enough thread tension to bring the material snugley to the hook and trim as much excess away as possible. Then test this material to ensure it is secure in place. If in doubt add a few more wraps or whip fonish it . If the recipe calls for another material to be tied in at this point , then tie it in just before or after the first material and do not crowd the hook eye. When forming your thread head . Use as little thread as possible to get the results you want and remember to stop a little short because your whip finish will add thickness as well.

Head cement is not a cure all. If the thread is placed on loose or incorectly it will not stay there no matter how much cement you use.

I have just covered some problems I have seen my begginer students fall into . All of them will not apply to you, but as I have not seen your flies , I tried to give you a broad base of solutions. Hope this helps, Fred

[halcyon 0]

A single 5 turn whip finish wrapped as a 5 thread wide band from rear toward the eye of the hook is all that is needed. You also have to use waxed thread or wax the thread section that will be used for the whip finish just before you make the whip finish. This in addition to what has already mentioned about proper thread tension and sufficient head space to wrap the head and the whip finish knot. Short of super glue (cure for poor workmanship) the head cement will not correct a poor job in tying the head and finishing knot. The easiest manner to learn this is to take a lesson from someone that is a good tyer. Your local fishing club or shop most likely can help you here.

[yellow bomber 0]

I was having the same problem with a few hairwings made with Squirrel tail, it seems that stuff is slipperey or something. I talked to someone here in town and he showed me how to add a few drops of head cement to the hair bundle before tying it on and to almost weave the thread through it when tying it down, kind of lashing little bits at a time instead of the entire bulk. Problem has gone away.

 

Not sure if there's a specific pattern that is causing you more problems than others, but this is a great method for durability.

 

Hope this helps and good luck.

[steelie 0]

Good Day,

 

Excellant advice guys!

 

Steelie

[Futzer 0]

Hi Neoflyte, all good advice so far, What brand and size thread do you use? Thread tension may be part of the problem too. Halcyons advice on a proper whip finish is very important and one of the most common mistakes I see with learning tiers. Try this, whip finish a bare hook, do not cut the tag end thread of your tie in and see if by pulling on it you can make your whip finish knot fail, If you can keep practicing with more tension and an even 5 wrap side by side whip finish.

 

Let us know, Cheers, Futzer.

[rockworm 0]

Futzer's advise is right on! If you don't use enough tension on your thread wraps your fly will come apart. With a few exceptions every wrap of thread should be just short of the breaking point.

 

I also rarely use head cement on the head. But I usually whip twice. Five plus five for a large fly (10 and larger) or three plus three for a small fly (smaller than 10).

[neoFLYte 0]

Hi Neoflyte, all good advice so far, What brand and size thread do you use? Thread tension may be part of the problem too. Halcyons advice on a proper whip finish is very important and one of the most common mistakes I see with learning tiers. Try this, whip finish a bare hook, do not cut the tag end thread of your tie in and see if by pulling on it you can make your whip finish knot fail, If you can keep practicing with more tension and an even 5 wrap side by side whip finish.

 

Let us know, Cheers, Futzer.

 

I think there is a good possibility that I'm crowding the eye with many of my finishes. I *know* that I have a tendency to make a thread "cone" on a lot of the heads. Those two things are probably the biggest errors I make, judging from all of your comments. So you are saying that the final whip finishes need to go down on bare or nearly bare wire, and NOT over a chunk of head thread? Guess I need to either get a good fly-tying book that explains basics in details or take some lessons. That's cool, though. What I like about the whole deal - fishing and tying - is that it takes a little learnin' to get good at it. :-)

 

As I was stocking up on supplies, the first thread I got was Danville "210 Denier Flat Waxed Nylon". That thread kinda bugs me because it is so prone to separating into individual strands. I'm sure there is a good use for thread like that, but I don't like having to spin it back in to thread all of the time. I have since been using mostly UNI-Thread W (for waxed, I suppose) 6/0. I haven't been keeping track of whether my Danville flies fall apart more than my UNI flies. I suspect that this is more of a finishing flaw than a thread flaw. I'm pretty sure my thread tension is OK. I wouldn't say I pull everything to near the breaking point, but I have broken the thread more than once because of pulling too hard. My wraps are what I'd call pretty dang snug.

 

Thanks for the comments!

neoFLYte

Austin TX

 

 

[Futzer 0]

Hi Neoflyte, all good advice so far, What brand and size thread do you use? Thread tension may be part of the problem too. Halcyons advice on a proper whip finish is very important and one of the most common mistakes I see with learning tiers. Try this, whip finish a bare hook, do not cut the tag end thread of your tie in and see if by pulling on it you can make your whip finish knot fail, If you can keep practicing with more tension and an even 5 wrap side by side whip finish.

 

Let us know, Cheers, Futzer.

 

I think there is a good possibility that I'm crowding the eye with many of my finishes. I *know* that I have a tendency to make a thread "cone" on a lot of the heads. Those two things are probably the biggest errors I make, judging from all of your comments. So you are saying that the final whip finishes need to go down on bare or nearly bare wire, and NOT over a chunk of head thread? Guess I need to either get a good fly-tying book that explains basics in details or take some lessons. That's cool, though. What I like about the whole deal - fishing and tying - is that it takes a little learnin' to get good at it. :-)

 

As I was stocking up on supplies, the first thread I got was Danville "210 Denier Flat Waxed Nylon". That thread kinda bugs me because it is so prone to separating into individual strands. I'm sure there is a good use for thread like that, but I don't like having to spin it back in to thread all of the time. I have since been using mostly UNI-Thread W (for waxed, I suppose) 6/0. I haven't been keeping track of whether my Danville flies fall apart more than my UNI flies. I suspect that this is more of a finishing flaw than a thread flaw. I'm pretty sure my thread tension is OK. I wouldn't say I pull everything to near the breaking point, but I have broken the thread more than once because of pulling too hard. My wraps are what I'd call pretty dang snug.

 

Thanks for the comments!

neoFLYte

Austin TX

 

 

Hi NeoFlyte, the 210 denier is pretty heavy thread, I would use it for spinning deer hair, but not an average trout fly. The Uni is good stuff, I use mostly 8/0 size on trout flies, 10 down to 24s. I use smaller below 24s. The comment "So you are saying that the final whip finishes need to go down on bare or nearly bare wire" Is not really necessary, the head will have a little cone shape to it, based on tying down the materials naturally create that shape. That is ok, but I tie out a hackle with 2 to 3 wraps tops, maybe add 2 or 3 more to shape the head, then whip finish. I usually do 2 whip finishes and add a tiny drop of Griffs thin head cement. I have not had a head unravel in at least 30 years. Just give the thread tension a litlle more attension and minimum amount of thread.

 

Let us know how it goes. Cheers, Futzer.

[rockworm 0]

If you have saved enough space for the head after tying on your wings, hackle, cheeks, whatever... you shouldn't have too steep a "cone" of thread. If you are crowding the eye, you may find yourself in the situation where your final thread wraps are unstable and want to slide forward. You don't want your whip finishes over bare hook. But that would be preferable to trying to make a head over the abrupt ends of feather butts and other materials.

 

Although a small, neat head is nice (and is not difficult to create consistently once you have learned the knack of handling your material) it is far more important that your fly doesn't fall apart before it hits the water. Don't hesitate to even out bumpy areas with a few extra thread wraps.

[neoFLYte 0]

If you have saved enough space for the head after tying on your wings, hackle, cheeks, whatever... you shouldn't have too steep a "cone" of thread. If you are crowding the eye, you may find yourself in the situation where your final thread wraps are unstable and want to slide forward. You don't want your whip finishes over bare hook. But that would be preferable to trying to make a head over the abrupt ends of feather butts and other materials.

 

Although a small, neat head is nice (and is not difficult to create consistently once you have learned the knack of handling your material) it is far more important that your fly doesn't fall apart before it hits the water. Don't hesitate to even out bumpy areas with a few extra thread wraps.

 

My flies only fall apart after having been in use for maybe 20-30 minutes and in most cases having caught 2 or 3 fish or at least having had several strikes. The flies I use are mostly Wooly Bugger or Clouser Minnow variants, usually on a 10 or 12 hook. The wrapped and hackled "Wooly Buggers" are the ones that come apart.

 

All of my fly-fishing to date has been limited to Central Texas. Since I don't have a boat (yet), that means stillwater stock ponds, creeks, and rivers. The only two kinds of fish I have caught so far are (small) largemouth bass and mostly respectable bluegills. My strike/catch rate with my fly rig is *much* better than I ever had with mainstream "bass" equipment, so even with flies that maybe don't last as long as I'd like, I am one happy camper. And maybe what I am seeing is just part of the game. If so, it is nothing that will keep me from enjoying something I wish I had thought to try many years ago.

 

Thanks for all of the advice!

NeoFLYte

Austin, TX

 

[Bob Cunningham 0]

Sounds like you are on the right track as to what to try neo. I have a tendency to crowd too much at the head, and have improved my efforts lately by taking more care. I have found the whip with the matarelli to be really reliable, so as long as you're keeping pretty good tension there concentrate on giving yourself more room at the head.

[JSzymczyk 0]

I was having the same problem with a few hairwings made with Squirrel tail, it seems that stuff is slipperey or something.

 

 

Squirrel tail can be a real PIA. It's a solid hair that does not compress hardly at all under thread tesion, and it is indeed "slippery". Trying to tie in a full wing of squirrel tail is always an adventure.

[buggybob 0]

I'm guessing that you use chenille for the body of your woolly buggers. Try this, stop the chenille one turn before you have been. That will give you enough space to wind the hackle and a whip finish. Commonly a lot of people will try to squeeze that extra turn of chenille and end up with a problem.