About to sink money into hackle: Howard Hackle v. Whiting

[whatfly 0]

For dry fly hackle, there's no question that Whiting has the best. From the description of what you are going to use it for, I'm not sure why you would need much more than a grizzly cape, if that. For wet fly hackle the field is a bit more open, but for dries there's no question, as long as you can afford it.

[smallieFanatic 0]

. From the description of what you are going to use it for, I'm not sure why you would need much more than a grizzly cape, if that.

 

He already stated that he ties dries for the enjoyment, and not necessarily because he is going to fish them all. Why should he stop at grizzly?

[TitanFlies 0]

Excellent point Jan. If you're tying for enjoyment, get the materials that will enable you. I'd recommend the Grizzly Saddle and Cape, Brown Saddle and Cape, and a Dun Saddle and Cape... that'll bring you just over your budget but luckily you don't answer to me. However, the primarly patterns I'd go with is Grizzly, Brown, Dun, even a Barred Ginger because then you won't have to double hackle an Adams and you can just use the Barred Ginger! If you're feeling really risque, a Silver Badger wouldn't hurt a bit!

 

 

[Dezod 0]

Dart

 

Based on what you said and why you are looking for hackle in the first placve I would go with the necks over the saddles as it will allow the widest variety of sizes for the money. I too would go for whitings, but I also have a number of hand selected Keough necks in colors I don't use a lot and they are a lot better priced. I do have to look through them seriously to find what I then decide is good enough.

 

C

[Dart 0]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm not opposed to fishing for panfish with a Royal Wulff, I just don't have the opportunity to fish much. I'm not one of the guys that ties so I can fish. I tie because I enjoy it as its own separate hobby.

 

The Whiting I have is very consistent, which is good since this will be mail order. I forgot to mention that I already have bugger packs in every color (I think). I also have a bunch of whiting American hen capes and saddles for collars and throats on classic wets. The saddles came in much smaller sizes than what I was looking for.

 

Apparently I'm going to make collecting feathers a hobby too.

[Flyweaver 0]

Check out Collins hackle farm. Good quality good prices, good selection. I've been using them for years.

[Guest]

Oh man the eternal what hackle is better than the other. Flat out everyone has their favorites. Peronally I don't care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All of the breeders has eggs from the old Darby line, I have Whiting, Conranch, Collins, CCH (hey it's on the lable), Spensers. I use it all but I have more Conrach and Whiting than the others.

 

For anyone that is considering the Collins tailing backs YES!!!!!!!!!!! buy them. They have really good spade hackle in them, and several articles lately on Hewitt skaters has people using these tailing packs to tie them.

 

For really tiny dry flies Conranch had offered JV Rooster and he is now carrying it again just call and tell him what your looking for.

 

Remember the top 5 have been producing hackle for 40+ years or more. Theres' lot's of great hackle out there and to continually hear that one or another is better than all the others in my opinion is total BS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Enjoy and try some from everyone then decide which is best for you.

 

Fatman

[perchjerker 0]

With respect to the high prices on Cree, it is my understanding that this is a color combination/pattern that CANNOT be selectively bred for,unlike the others. It "just happens"; hence, they are considered to be rare (1:1000 as per above), and, like everything else, rarity commands corresponding prices.

 

perchjerker

[David Legg 0]

Remember the top 5 have been producing hackle for 40+ years or more. Theres' lot's of great hackle out there and to continually hear that one or another is better than all the others in my opinion is total BS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I guess that opinion is just as relevant as the opinion that one brand (whichever one you like) rules them all.

 

 

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[rockworm 0]

Dart

 

You have received a lot of suggestions- all of it good and pertinent. If you are anything like me, you will be tying lots of flies that you, personally, will not use (my surplus goes to friends and charities.) Let's face it- tying is fun, and a challenge! (I wonder what Picasso would have tyed? Not the same as Matisse! Or Van Gough!) The materials we use are fantastic and beautiful and desireable (that's why we fork out the bucks for a cree when a grizzly and a brown do such a better job.)

 

As an artist (and yes, many flyters consider themselves artists) you have to learn to master your materials. To do that you need to experience the different materials. If you are a new tyer and have $300 to spend on material I would suggest you use it to investigate what there is to work with.

 

You have heard a lot about the excellence of Whiting hackle. All of it true. Tom is probably the biggest seller of cock hackle. But the other producers of "genetic hackle": Dennis Conrad, Hugh Spencer, Buck Metz (at least the present owners of his flock), ... all have something else to offer you. Don't spend all your money in one place (until/unless you know that's what you want.) By all means buy some Whiting product (you won't be disapointed.) But also look at what the others offer. The Metz line offers a range of the most (reproduceably) beautiful feathers you can find anywhere. Uniquely, Conranch provides skins from immature birds, the feathers of which fill a much-needed niche in fly tying. Conranch birds, especially hens (in my opinion,) offer colours not found anywhere else. (Conranch is also probably your best bet if you are looking for a cree neck.) The Spencer chickens, although limited to Grizzly, White and Brown, are economically one of the best deals to be found. And Hugh Spencer is a master dyer! He will work with you to get exactly what you want.

 

But there is more than "genetic hackle." You also need to investigate the inexpensive Chinese and Indian necks which, thanks to the H1N1 virus, are becoming rare. These feathers (often produced in the USA) are not as easy to work with as the genetic hackle, but are practically the only source of "Greenwell" and "Cock-y-Bondhu" feathers.

 

Then there is the subject of "game hackle": grouse, partridge, quail, snipe, woodcock, pheasant, starling, ... These are also part of your pallette. And you will eventually want to work with them all.

 

But then, your $300 is spent and now what?

 

(Have you investigated the furs used in fly tying?)

 

 

 

 

 

[Carl Z 0]

Let me just chime in on suggestions. I have enough Whitting Saddle hackle in size 16-22 to last me a life time. I picked up some grade 1 feathers that were exactly what I needed when I was tying small dries in Utah. I now live in Maryland and fish the Potomac for Bass. All these feathers are ageing in my supply box right now.

 

Saddle is **FANTASTIC** if you are tying a lot of the same size flies. If you are tying different sizes all the time, go with a neck. Also, a full saddle is a big investment a half saddle in two sizes would also make a lot of sense.

 

I would accumulate the feathers for the files you are going to tie in the near future, and maybe get a neck or two in common colors so you you can tie a range of dries if you want to. Then, when you have stripped the neck bare of the sizes that you usually tie (you will actually get a band on your neck where you have pulled out all the feathers of that size), invest in a saddle for that size.

 

This is my new philosophy in feather buying. Now that I am tying bass flies, I find I have to spend a lot more on hooks, and there are a lot of different styles. For trout flies, you really need only a few types of hooks (in quite a few sizes, but standard dry fly, nymph and 3xl nymph will tie most trout flies)

I guess I am saying, don't over invest in feathers, there are a lot of other things you need to tie flies.

 

[Dart 0]

Thanks for all the advise guys, but for now I'm going to have to put this on hold. Unfortunately, as of Friday, I have found myself unemployed. Until that situation is straightened out, I'll continue to tie soft hackles, but will definitely revisit this thread when the opportunity to make a purchase resurfaces.

[Guest]

David

 

I think you missed the part "All of the breeders has eggs from the old Darby line,". Now whether they got them straight from Darby or a strain of the eggs years down the road, the Darby strain is still there and all of them are working off of it.

 

Fatman

[David Legg 0]

David

 

I think you missed the part "All of the breeders has eggs from the old Darby line,". Now whether they got them straight from Darby or a strain of the eggs years down the road, the Darby strain is still there and all of them are working off of it.

 

Fatman

 

I saw that... but in my opinion that does not make all hackle equal. If you look at the hackle we have today and compare it to hackle from old Darby birds or old Miner stock, or whatever genetic line you wish to look at, the difference between what the stock looked like then and what breeders have developed since then is radical. There was a disconnect years ago between the lines of the individual breeders, and generations of development have left some gaps between them. I have an early Hoffman Grizzly cape that was given to me by a friend that he inherited from his father. It is nothing like the current stock of Whiting (Hoffman) except that it came from a rooster. If I was going to tie from it today, I would use it for streamers or buggers, or hackle points for wings, but would not bother with using it for dry fly hackle. My Whiting and Metz capes are both much higher quality.

 

Here is a link that has some information on the main hackle suppliers, and a little history for them.

http://www.thebowriver.com/alberta/history_of_hackle.htm

I am not saying the link is authoritative, but it is illustratrive, and offers food for thought.

 

I don't think that all players in this field are equal, just as not all birds of Darby lineage are equal. And the resources a company has to work with affect their ability to develop their line. So does their ability to find willing partners to take their basic grade hackle, so that they can market the best material to the retail fly tying market.

 

I respect you opinion, btw... I just intended to urge you to consider the opinions of others who may feel differently. Your remark in the original post may not have been framed as intended.

[Guest]

David

 

If my remarks offended I'm sorry it wasn't meant that way. Kinda have this hackle arguement with a guy I know here in Vermont, and after he tried some other brands he was kinda put out that he was stuck in the one supplier niche.

 

Excellent article you posted.

 

I know everyone is out to get the best hackle that can be bred, but I'd sure as heck wish they hadn't bred the really good spade hackle out when they did it. I've looked at alot and it's just really tough to get good spade hackle for tailing. That's why I spent the $20 bucks and tried the 4 colors of tailing packs that Collins offered.

 

Fatman