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Kirk Dietrich

Clousers

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Will someone please tell me why almost everyone incorporates Clouser into the name of their fly if it has bead chain or lead barbell eyes? Almost every pattern I see with Clouser in the name has no similarity to a Clouser except for the eyes. Clouser used lead barbells provided by Tom Schmucker (sp?) to make his minnow. Before Clouser did that, flies were tied with bead chain, one of the most famous being the Crazy Charlie. I just don't get it????

 

Kirk

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I get what you mean and it bugs me as well. I think the reason is, people are afraid to claim originality on a fly which seems very similar to another.

eg, I tie a fly very much like a clouser minnow only it has bead chain eyes and mylar tubing for the body. Even though it is different in some aspects, I am hesitant to give it a whole new name, since it is very much like a clouser minnow.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it :D

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The Clouser Minnow is a style, like a Lefty's Deceiver, rather than a specific pattern. There can be many forms, but the credit for the original idea is given to each of these gentlemen for their contribution, I feel out of respect. The Crazy Charlie, I believe was originated after the Clouser Minnow, so it could be said that it's really a form of the Clouser Minnow, although, the only real similarity is the fact that both are inverted due in part to the placement of the eyes. There were other flies that used bead chain before the Clouser Minnow was tied. It's hard to draw definitive lines between some fly patterns, as to who did what, and who did it first. Frankly, I don't think it really matters. Fly tying is an ever evolving endeavor.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with it either way, but if you're tying a Clouser style fly, then give credit where credit should be given, as in "XYZ's" Clouser Minnow version. There are a lot of flies that have been attributed to specific tiers, when in fact their patterns are just forms of another known pattern, with some slight changes. I've seen a bunch of Deceivers that were called something else, but they're still "deceiver style flies"! There are very few true original patterns these days, as we copy & change & modify & adapt, until the original is nearly lost in the frenzy, and everyone want's to put their name on "their" pattern.

 

I would not call them originals, but variations. That's just me, and again don't care what others call them. It's a fly, it works to catch fish, so that's all that really matters to me! :rolleyes:

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Tidewater, I agree hook point up with weight on top is a style of tying but Bob did it in 1987 and it was popularized by a 1989 article in Fly Fisherman magazine written by Lefty Kreh. The Crazie Charlie was first tied by Bob Nauheim in 1977. Flies tied in the hook point up style were being tied before him too, my history is a little foggy before that but I think it was someone named Bates in the fifties that either first did it with lead tape or wrote about it being done by another tier???

Actually, the trend of people naming hook point up flies Clouser is a refreshing turn indicating modern tiers aren't so egotistical as many tiers of past that would rename a fly after themselves for merely changing the color of a famous dry fly.

I'm just saying that the style of tying a fly hook point up precludes Clouser and Bob "Crazy Charlie" Nauheim and anyone tying a fly in this style should not have to feel morally obligated to include an additional name into their fly. The Clouser Minnow, tied in the hook point up style by Bob Clouser is a great fly with excellent attributes and deserves the widespread renown it has but it is by far not the first fly tied in that style by several decades.

Anyway, just one of those things, neither here nor there.

 

Kirk

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Tidewater, I agree hook point up with weight on top is a style of tying but Bob did it in 1987 and it was popularized by a 1989 article in Fly Fisherman magazine written by Lefty Kreh. The Crazie Charlie was first tied by Bob Nauheim in 1977. Flies tied in the hook point up style were being tied before him too, my history is a little foggy before that but I think it was someone named Bates in the fifties that either first did it with lead tape or wrote about it being done by another tier???

Actually, the trend of people naming hook point up flies Clouser is a refreshing turn indicating modern tiers aren't so egotistical as many tiers of past that would rename a fly after themselves for merely changing the color of a famous dry fly.

I'm just saying that the style of tying a fly hook point up precludes Clouser and Bob "Crazy Charlie" Nauheim and anyone tying a fly in this style should not have to feel morally obligated to include an additional name into their fly. The Clouser Minnow, tied in the hook point up style by Bob Clouser is a great fly with excellent attributes and deserves the widespread renown it has but it is by far not the first fly tied in that style by several decades.

Anyway, just one of those things, neither here nor there.

 

Kirk

 

Col. Joe Bates wrote about tying in bead chain eyes, and even using bead chain eyes FILLED WITH LEAD SOLDER as early as the fifties. He was clear that it wasn't his idea, and credited who he thought devised the method. 5am, not enough coffee yet and I cant remember the details.

 

As to why do people call them "Clousers"... I see at least two reasons- Marketing, and laziness. Even "Clouser Minnow" isn't right, because Bob Clouser also ties and developed a "Clouser Floating Minnow", it's in his book. So everywhere we looked over the past 20 years and more, we wee "Clouser Minnow" "Clouser Minnow" "Clouser Minnow" because it is one hell of an effective style. Every fly fishing rag out there has done repeated stories about them ever since Lefty first wrote about it. That's the marketing.

 

The laziness is 99.997% of everyone who has ever tied one on their tippet. "duhhhhh, whatcha usin'?" comes the voice from streamside bushes.... "Oh, a number 4 bicolor bucktail tied inverted with lead-free tungsten hourglass eyes painted red with a black pupil." Says the angler... yeah right, or "Clouser."

 

Once again, we have met the enemy, and they are us.

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Kirk, I can't argue your history, mine on the other hand needs refreshing. I did some reading this morning. You're correct that the Crazy Charlies were tied before the Clouser Minnow, and yes Joe Bates did mention using bead chain long before either styles were first tied. However the original Charlie was tied with a feather wing, so that would cause it to be very different than a Clouser. I was thinking in terms of the more popular Charlies tied with a hair wing, possibly being considered a form of a Clouser, but it could be said it's the other way around!

 

I don't think hook point up is the only attribute that makes any fly a "Clouser style". There are specific attributes to a Clouser, one is the inverted hook, two is the eye position, and three, they're tied with hair, or hair type material. I don't feel if it was tied completely with hackle it would still be a Clouser style fly. Also, the hair is tied in a specific manner. I have seen versions tied by Lefty that did not include belly hair. I guess, they could be called Charlie style in that case. This is where we start getting into overlap between two styles. Fact is the Clouser style may only be a continuation of the Charlie style. Confusing isn't it? But, as we've both said, it doesn't matter. Both are excellent flies!

 

I agree there are too many tiers that change a pattern & add their names to it, but that's marketing. Everyone wants to be famous!

 

Joel, marketing & laziness is the best reason I've heard! :lol:

 

 

 

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JS, I could see using Clouser to shorten the name for conversation purposes but what I've seen is Clouser inserted in a name and making it an actual mouthful. For instance, on the WarmWater forum here, there is a feather tailed, no body fly with bead chain eyes posted named Inverted Perch Clouser Fry; holy crap! Now that is a mouthful, why not just Perch Fry? "We have met the enemy and they are us", great line!

 

Tide, Lefty's feather tailed fly I think you're referencing he dubbed the Half'n'Half as it is the front half of his friend Bob Clouser's fly and rear half of his Deceiver. Lefty is a friend of Clouser and didn't feel the need to attach his friends name to a fly he obviously modified. I just think people are needlessly making fly names longer by adding Clouser. Perhaps ya'll are right and the thinking is by attaching that name that they can have a better recognized, more marketable fly?? Then too, using his name like that seems, to some extent, as a kind of name infringement without Clouser's permission to use his name??

 

Marketing is certainly a driving force and when Lefty becomes a proponet and marketer for a fly, that is going to stick with a lot of people. Likely what I'm seeing is coming from a lot of young tiers that are only familiar with the most recent of creations such as the Clouser and most are unaware of the tiers in the early days of bonefishing and maybe even steelheading where weight in the form of bead chain and later lead filled bead chain were utilized on existing patterns to make them more effective.

 

Thanks for the discussion,

 

Kirk

 

 

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lots of things are marketed as something special by adding a name already known

you say the name clouser is used to much ,i think spey is added way to much, just to draw attention to what people are pushing

also i think every fly has already been tied

i think you would almost have to invent a material or hook to make a TOTALLY NEW fly design now adays

there are a few genius tyers out there and a few mad men that will argue that last statement and i cant wait to see what they bring to the table

K.I.S.S.

find enjoyment out of what you tie and fish

name it as you choose

this is only my opinion and you have to consider the source

 

 

 

 

 

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The key word in the fly's name is "minnow" not jig. Most people tie them with the eyes forward and when the fly is fished the head drops like a rock when strip/pause retrieved. But they still catch a lot of fish. By placing them farther back from the eye the fly glides on the pause. At least that's the theory anyway.

 

Part one of a you tube video of the man himself tying the fly.

 

Pay attention to how he puts his eyes on the fly. He ties them in behind the thread bump at the 1/3 hook point as he measures it using the overall hook length.

 

As a jig with the eyes forward or as minnow with eyes farther back, it is a very effective fly.

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