Elk and Moose hair... Need some input..

[c-denby 0]

So I recently bought some elk and moose from FTD and I love how long the hair is. But I have a few questions:

Due to the Elk being so light colored from the base to just below the tips, Will this hair dye easily?

 

Is Elk and Moose hollow like bucktail??

 

Is it normally very brittle? it is very crinkly and i find if i bend it anywhere along the crinkles it breaks very easily.

 

and last but not least, Where can I get moose underfur for dubbing??

 

 

Cheers,

chris

[rockworm 0]

Tanned elk dyes well, but you should first soak it for an hour or two in hot water (maybe with a bit of fabric softener) to soften the hair and make it more accessible to the dye.

 

Most of the hair on the elk is "hollow" and flares readily. But there is a region on the rump that has "non-hollow", less-flareable hair.

 

Moose hair, in general, flares much less than deer or elk. (And makes great mayfly tails!)

[c-denby 0]

I'm actually just in the process of drying it now as I just washed it all this morning with some Dove soap and a little fabric softener.

[flytire 0]

if i remember correctly, i believe that elk, deer etc hair is chambered and not hollow from butt to tip.

 

the reference comes from watching a chris helm video. and he knows hair!

[James Daly2 0]

Tanned elk dyes well, but you should first soak it for an hour or two in hot water (maybe with a bit of fabric softener) to soften the hair and make it more accessible to the dye.

 

If I may chime in on the dye front. Whatever works for you is great, stick to it. But, the need to soak a piece of hair for an hour or two is way too long. All natural furs, feathers, etc are made up of keratin. Keratin reacts pretty quickly to heat. The point of dying in a hot dye bath is that it heats the keratin up to open the pores to the fullest. This allows the dyestuff to enter the pores, thus creating a "lake". That's why you rinse it with luke warm water. It closes the pores up pretty quick and Voila' you've permanently dyed a material. Think of splashing cold water on your face. Your face tightens up pretty quickly, right? The substrate (materials) may or may not need more time to soak in the dyebath. The reason being that it may be a tighter material. What I mean by that is that a Goose quill needs approximately 5x's longer in a dye bath than a piece of Mohair to get the same color. Quills have a lot of oil to shed water and they are a more densely packed keratin. Mohair on the other hand is a wispy, light fur that can pick up color in minutes. Equate it to trying to dye a piece of fingernail vs a clump of hair. The fingernail would take a heck of a lot longer to dye the same color as the clump of hair, but will eventually take the same color. Essentially, you want to soak a piece that you are going to dye in hot water for around 10 minutes and make sure there is dawn dish soap in the soak. Dawn has the highest amount of synthropol available in retail stores.

You can buy Synthropol from shops and fabric websites. Its a degreaser/detergent. The reason for the dawn is to strip the oils from the hair/feather/etc. The oils protect the keratin and make dying a lot harder. Once the oils are stripped and the substrate heat to open the pores, it only takes about 5-10 minutes in a dye bath of acid dyes (Jacquard, Veniard, etc) to get a decent color on most hair. Some make take longer, but you can monitor the color and remove it when you hit the right shade.

 

Dying hair is exactly like dying easter eggs. Get some Jacquard Acid Dyes in various shades, heat your dye pot to just below boiling, add your dye amount to reach the desired shade, add vinegar (the acid) and a drop or two of dawn. Drop your piece of fur that has been presoaked in hot water for around 10 minutes and let it sit. For a richer color, after 10-15 minutes, shut the fire off and let it cool to room temp in the dye bath. The depth of color will blow you away.

 

I've dyed all sorts of materials in all sorts of shades using various methods. It really is another hobby, just like fly tying. I've used natural materials (I have a bunch) to dye like the old world masters did. Cochineal beetles (The British Red Coats were dyed using Cochineal), log wood, turmeric, indigo, brazil wood, etc, etc. Acid dyes are a lot easier, as they cut down the dye time by about 2 hours! Anyways, take that advice for what it's worth and have fun doing it! It's a blast and the greatest part is that you can custom dye materials that you wouldn't find in your local shop.

 

To answer the main topic, some areas of the elk hide are more chambered than others. But, for the most part, it will flare nicely. Moose, on the other hand, especially the mane, is more like bucktail and to parrot rockworm makes killer mayfly tails.

 

Here's some pics of feathers, mohair, berlin wool that I dyed a while ago and some deer, rabbit and elk I dyed yesterday.

Notice the rabbit color, I let it sit for a very short time in the bath to give it a slight tinge of color. I wanted to retain the natural color, but have a little color to it for a crayfish-ish pattern. -Jamie

 

 

[DevinKaradeema 0]

Tanned elk dyes well, but you should first soak it for an hour or two in hot water (maybe with a bit of fabric softener) to soften the hair and make it more accessible to the dye.

 

If I may chime in on the dye front. Whatever works for you is great, stick to it. But, the need to soak a piece of hair for an hour or two is way too long. All natural furs, feathers, etc are made up of keratin. Keratin reacts pretty quickly to heat. The point of dying in a hot dye bath is that it heats the keratin up to open the pores to the fullest. This allows the dyestuff to enter the pores, thus creating a "lake". That's why you rinse it with luke warm water. It closes the pores up pretty quick and Voila' you've permanently dyed a material. Think of splashing cold water on your face. Your face tightens up pretty quickly, right? The substrate (materials) may or may not need more time to soak in the dyebath. The reason being that it may be a tighter material. What I mean by that is that a Goose quill needs approximately 5x's longer in a dye bath than a piece of Mohair to get the same color. Quills have a lot of oil to shed water and they are a more densely packed keratin. Mohair on the other hand is a wispy, light fur that can pick up color in minutes. Equate it to trying to dye a piece of fingernail vs a clump of hair. The fingernail would take a heck of a lot longer to dye the same color as the clump of hair, but will eventually take the same color. Essentially, you want to soak a piece that you are going to dye in hot water for around 10 minutes and make sure there is dawn dish soap in the soak. Dawn has the highest amount of synthropol available in retail stores.

You can buy Synthropol from shops and fabric websites. Its a degreaser/detergent. The reason for the dawn is to strip the oils from the hair/feather/etc. The oils protect the keratin and make dying a lot harder. Once the oils are stripped and the substrate heat to open the pores, it only takes about 5-10 minutes in a dye bath of acid dyes (Jacquard, Veniard, etc) to get a decent color on most hair. Some make take longer, but you can monitor the color and remove it when you hit the right shade.

 

Dying hair is exactly like dying easter eggs. Get some Jacquard Acid Dyes in various shades, heat your dye pot to just below boiling, add your dye amount to reach the desired shade, add vinegar (the acid) and a drop or two of dawn. Drop your piece of fur that has been presoaked in hot water for around 10 minutes and let it sit. For a richer color, after 10-15 minutes, shut the fire off and let it cool to room temp in the dye bath. The depth of color will blow you away.

 

I've dyed all sorts of materials in all sorts of shades using various methods. It really is another hobby, just like fly tying. I've used natural materials (I have a bunch) to dye like the old world masters did. Cochineal beetles (The British Red Coats were dyed using Cochineal), log wood, turmeric, indigo, brazil wood, etc, etc. Acid dyes are a lot easier, as they cut down the dye time by about 2 hours! Anyways, take that advice for what it's worth and have fun doing it! It's a blast and the greatest part is that you can custom dye materials that you wouldn't find in your local shop.

 

To answer the main topic, some areas of the elk hide are more chambered than others. But, for the most part, it will flare nicely. Moose, on the other hand, especially the mane, is more like bucktail and to parrot rockworm makes killer mayfly tails.

 

Here's some pics of feathers, mohair, berlin wool that I dyed a while ago and some deer, rabbit and elk I dyed yesterday.

Notice the rabbit color, I let it sit for a very short time in the bath to give it a slight tinge of color. I wanted to retain the natural color, but have a little color to it for a crayfish-ish pattern. -Jamie

]

 

 

 

+1 to the dye master :headbang:

 

[c-denby 0]

Thanks everyone..

 

Jamie- You are awesome, Tons of info that really helped me. Thanks again and BTW, How did you get that orange with bright yellow tips on the patches of hair on the right in the 2nd pic?

 

 

Also, when I say hollow, I do mean honeycombed or chambered. I know its not just totally hollow. I just use that term as it is most common.

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

 

[James Daly2 0]

How did you get that orange with bright yellow tips on the patches of hair on the right in the 2nd pic?

 

 

Chris,

There's no voodoo involved. It's all a matter of selecting the materials that you want to dye based on the natural shading of the material itself. Take grizzly bear for instance, if you get a blond phase patch, the hair closest to the hide will be a dark shade, it then transitions to a blond tip. So, if you dye it yellow, the darker shade will take on an orangish color and the lighter tips will be yellow. Same with deer, elk, etc. some of it transitions from light, to dark and back to light at the tips. A natural shading technique that only mother nature can produce! I just exploit it! -Jamie

 

PS- IF you do get into dying, try mixing different colored dyes. You'll get some pretty wacky colors. Word to the wise, if you are married........don't use the good pots.

[Steve P 0]

PS- IF you do get into dying, try mixing different colored dyes. You'll get some pretty wacky colors. Word to the wise, if you are married........don't use the good pots.

 

 

Amen to that one... the wife may find the urge to :gun_bandana: and you will need to :serenade: before you ever see your side of the bed again let alone hers. Believe me I speak from experience.

 

Best advice I received when I started to dye my own was to get a small hot plate from Wally World and find some pots and pans at garage sales (the .50 or cheaper work just fine) and work outside if at all possible if not do it in the garage or basement wherever you can accidentally spill some dye and not have to go into the witness protection program to save yourself from an angry woman. Also might want to check out the book from A.K. Best "Dying and bleaching Natural Fly Tying Materials".

 

Steve