Terry Dunford 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 I'm wanting to tie some really good looking deer hair bass bugs and am having a problem trying to decide which type of hackle to buy. I already have all the plain color hackle I need, but I'm in the market for grizzly hackle. The best that I've found so far is the Metz Magnum Necks. Is there anything better that you guys would recommend? I would like it to look sharp and fish well. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. I have attached a photo of the Metz Magnum that I'm referring to in this post. This Metz Hackle is sharp, but would prefer Whiting if someone could recommend exactly what to purchase. This Metz Magnum is genetically designed for streamers and bass and pike flies and supposedly are "wide". Anyone know of something better? Terry Dunford http://flytyingclub.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skidoosh 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Check out whiting american hackle necks- they are designed specifically for Saltwater/Bass. You can also check out the lace wing american hackle from Whiting. It runs about $30.00 a neck and I think Orvis carries it or call Chris Helm and he will set you up with what you need. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Dunford 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Check out whiting american hackle necks- they are designed specifically for Saltwater/Bass. You can also check out the lace wing american hackle from Whiting. It runs about $30.00 a neck and I think Orvis carries it or call Chris Helm and he will set you up with what you need. Thank you. Yes, I need to order some deer hair anyway, so I'll call Chris Helms tomorrow to order. The American Hackles was on the top of my list of possibilities, but also just thought about getting the Whiting Introductory pack with 2 necks and 2 hackles. So, will ask Chris Helms tomorrow what he thinks and will go from there. Thanks for your input! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairstacker 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 There's no right or wrong answer and will depend on what you're tying and your personal preferences. For deer hair divers, for example, I personally prefer rooster neck hackle that is long, webby, and with wide, rounded tips; in other words, not rooster hackle for tying trout dries. Here's a couple of examples where I used either hackle sold as "strung rooster neck hackle" or rooster feathers off of a "bass/saltwater neck/cape": "Strung rooster neck" hackle is much less expensive if you want to get a bunch of different colors at once, but you'll get a much larger quantity and range of feather sizes if you get a full "bass/saltwater" neck. Another advantage of a full neck is that it's easier to pair up feathers with respect to curvature and size. -- Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Dunford 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 There's no right or wrong answer and will depend on what you're tying and your personal preferences. For deer hair divers, for example, I personally prefer rooster neck hackle that is long, webby, and with wide, rounded tips; in other words, not rooster hackle for tying trout dries. Here's a couple of examples where I used either hackle sold as "strung rooster neck hackle" or rooster feathers off of a "bass/saltwater neck/cape": "Strung rooster neck" hackle is much less expensive if you want to get a bunch of different colors at once, but you'll get a much larger quantity and range of feather sizes if you get a full "bass/saltwater" neck. Another advantage of a full neck is that it's easier to pair up feathers with respect to curvature and size. -- Mike Thank you, Mike. So the "bass/saltwater neck" is the Whiting American Necks? Or...? I'll be calling Chris Helm in the morning to place an order, so please be specific. I know that you're the man and I will trust your recommendations. Thank you for your help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairstacker 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Yes, a Whiting American rooster neck is the same as what is commonly referred to as a "bass/saltwater neck" and is equivalent to the feathers I pictured above. Keep in mind, though, that "Whiting American" necks are sold as either rooster or hen capes -- for feathers like those I pictured above, you want the Whiting American rooster cape, not the hen cape. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Dunford 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Yes, a Whiting American rooster neck is the same as what is commonly referred to as a "bass/saltwater neck" and is equivalent to the feathers I pictured above. Keep in mind, though, that "Whiting American" necks are sold as either rooster or hen capes -- for feathers like those I pictured above, you want the Whiting American rooster cape, not the hen cape. Great, thank you. That is exactly what I planned on getting, just wanted to confirm that it was the best choice, so thank you for your help! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairstacker 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Lastly, just to be clear, you're looking for a neck/cape, not a saddle, if you're looking for feathers like those I pictured above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Dunford 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Lastly, just to be clear, you're looking for a neck/cape, not a saddle, if you're looking for feathers like those I pictured above. Understood, thank you. A friend just offered me 4 capes for half off retail. Whoopee!!! :yahoo: Since I've got you here, one more question. Have you ever used one of those double-side Renzetti stackers? If so, what do you think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairstacker 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 No, I've never used one of those, sorry. For me, I prefer two things in a stacker: decent size and some type of opening or clear window that allows me to see the hair tips. This is the one I use -- the tube doesn't extend all the way to the base so I can see the tips being stacked, and I can also see if the hair is oriented well in the tube. Because I can see what's going on, I can stack as few as 6 moose hairs for a small Western Adams, for example, or a decent stack of hair for a big Dahlberg. Anyway, any sufficiently large stacker will work just fine for deer hair work. Keep in mind, though, that when tying deer hair bass bugs, a stacker is often necessary but not as often as you might imagine. Generally speaking, if you exercise just a little care when you cut hair off the hide and handle it, it will not be necessary to stack it -- you're going to end up trimming/shaving the uneven tips off anyway, so why waste the time? The hair stacker is useful, though, when you want to even up the tips that won't be trimmed (like at the tail-end of a diver) or on those occasions every so often when you've inadvertently shifted the hair in your finger-tips too much. They're also useful, of course, for evening up bucktail hairs used for popper tails, for example. If you don't own a hair stacker and only plan to buy one, make sure it's a big one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Dunford 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 No, I've never used one of those, sorry. For me, I prefer two things in a stacker: decent size and some type of opening or clear window that allows me to see the hair tips. This is the one I use -- the tube doesn't extend all the way to the base so I can see the tips being stacked, and I can also see if the hair is oriented well in the tube. Because I can see what's going on, I can stack as few as 6 moose hairs for a small Western Adams, for example, or a decent stack of hair for a big Dahlberg. Anyway, any sufficiently large stacker will work just fine for deer hair work. Keep in mind, though, that when tying deer hair bass bugs, a stacker is often necessary but not as often as you might imagine. Generally speaking, if you exercise just a little care when you cut hair off the hide and handle it, it will not be necessary to stack it -- you're going to end up trimming/shaving the uneven tips off anyway, so why waste the time? The hair stacker is useful, though, when you want to even up the tips that won't be trimmed (like at the tail-end of a diver) or on those occasions every so often when you've inadvertently shifted the hair in your finger-tips too much. They're also useful, of course, for evening up bucktail hairs used for popper tails, for example. If you don't own a hair stacker and only plan to buy one, make sure it's a big one. Thanks again, Mike. Great advice and exactly what I needed to know. Thank you for spending the time to do that, you're awesome! I'll probably look into getting one of those stackers as I agree with your reasoning on why it's useful over others, so thank you for explaining that. You've been helpful enough for one day, but I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future, so until then.... Thanks!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
perchjerker 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Terry: With respect to the Renzetti double-ended hair stackers, I have both the small and the medium one, and they are great for stacking hair for wings, tails etc., on small flies, such as wings for Comparaduns, etc., but they are way too small for the large clumps of deer hair that are normally used in tying bass bugs. I totally agree with hairstacker relative to the use of a stacker when doing bass bugs. If you hold the hair tight when you strip the underfur out, there is no need to stack at all as you cut the tips off before attaching to the hook. If, after cutting the tips off, the butts are not even, you can cut the very tips off to even the ends up. After cutting the tips off, if you have premium deer hair, you should have hair that is at least 2 inches long, maybe more, to work with, which is plenty long enough for a bug on a 2/0 hook. You may already be aware of this, but be sure to cut the hair from the hide as close to the hide as possible. This will give you the maximum possible length to work with with the greatest amount of the 'hollow' portion. The 'hollow' part of the hair, which is what you are looking for, is found in the lower 75-80% of the hair; hence, cutting the tips off gives you the best part of the hair for floatability. Be sure to get all of the under fur out of the clump. Such things as mustache combs, old toothbrushes with the bristles cut back somewhat to give a very stiff bristle, poodle combs, brass .22 rifle cleaning brushes, etc., all make great tools for removing the underfur from the butts of the hair. Get it all out! Personally, I think you are jousting at windmills with respect to Metz vs Whiting hackles. If you have ever tied these bugs with the feathers we had available before Metz started their genetic breeding program, I think you would understand my position. (As they say: "Been there, done that.") perchjerker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Dunford 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Terry: With respect to the Renzetti double-ended hair stackers, I have both the small and the medium one, and they are great for stacking hair for wings, tails etc., on small flies, such as wings for Comparaduns, etc., but they are way too small for the large clumps of deer hair that are normally used in tying bass bugs. I totally agree with hairstacker relative to the use of a stacker when doing bass bugs. If you hold the hair tight when you strip the underfur out, there is no need to stack at all as you cut the tips off before attaching to the hook. If, after cutting the tips off, the butts are not even, you can cut the very tips off to even the ends up. After cutting the tips off, if you have premium deer hair, you should have hair that is at least 2 inches long, maybe more, to work with, which is plenty long enough for a bug on a 2/0 hook. You may already be aware of this, but be sure to cut the hair from the hide as close to the hide as possible. This will give you the maximum possible length to work with with the greatest amount of the 'hollow' portion. The 'hollow' part of the hair, which is what you are looking for, is found in the lower 75-80% of the hair; hence, cutting the tips off gives you the best part of the hair for floatability. Be sure to get all of the under fur out of the clump. Such things as mustache combs, old toothbrushes with the bristles cut back somewhat to give a very stiff bristle, poodle combs, brass .22 rifle cleaning brushes, etc., all make great tools for removing the underfur from the butts of the hair. Get it all out! Personally, I think you are jousting at windmills with respect to Metz vs Whiting hackles. If you have ever tied these bugs with the feathers we had available before Metz started their genetic breeding program, I think you would understand my position. (As they say: "Been there, done that.") perchjerker Thank you, perchjerker. I still consider myself an amateur in stacking/spinning deer hair, and am finally now jumping into it as I had my first taste of catching a monster largemouth on a fly rod. I appreciate the knowledge you shared. A couple years ago I got one of those medium sized rosewood stackers and have been content with it (tying trout flies anyway), but just wasn't quite sure if it would be big enough to handle hair for a large bass bug. Also, I keep hearing that I should be using a smaller stacker for smaller flies and small hair clumps. I've learned a lot from this thread and from your guys' help, so thank you for that. I'm new to the forum and from learning through a forum, but so far I like the experience. I have a website http://flytyingclub.org that I've been running for a little while now and have learned so much from all the contributors to the site, but I do think that I will be getting more involved with this forum, as I see that people do care enough to spend quality time trying to help, which I greatly appreciate! Thanks again!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Derington 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 B4 I starting using Whitings American, I used Capon necks, made popular by Jimmy Nix and other well known Bass Bug guys. Those "capons" were originally breed for their great tasting meat but somewhere down the line a bass bug guy not only ate it , he saw the value that comes from casteration, which causes the male to stop producing testosterone which in hand turns the feathers to nice rooster quality with rounded tips. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Dunford 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2011 B4 I starting using Whitings American, I used Capon necks, made popular by Jimmy Nix and other well known Bass Bug guys. Those "capons" were originally breed for their great tasting meat but somewhere down the line a bass bug guy not only ate it , he saw the value that comes from casteration, which causes the male to stop producing testosterone which in hand turns the feathers to nice rooster quality with rounded tips. Yeah, while doing research about all the different hackles to use for bass bugs, I did run into a few Capon necks and they did look like they would be good. With all the questions I've asked, research I've done and flies I've seen, I think I'll be sticking with the Whiting American necks and have 4 in the mail to me right now, so can't wait to dig in. For those who tie pike flies, the longer, thinner saddles would be the best due to the length and smaller width, correct? Because I will be tying pike flies too, I'd like to ask the question... Shall I use Whiting American Saddles or plain bronze Whiting dry fly capes for long pike flies and large streamers? Or something else entirely? I want to use the best quality hackles. I just found this fly on a website and the guy said that he used "orange grizzly schlappen feathers". Those certainly do not look like schlappen feathers that I've ever seen. I would guess that they are orange dyed over grizzly rooster cape. Will the feathers from a Whiting American look like these: Photo was taken from http://thelonesomepiker.blogspot.com/2010_11_01_archive.html In order to get grizzly hackles that are at least the same quality as in the photo above, would I have to get an orange dyed over grizzly bronze Whiting cape or saddle, or will the American capes have feathers that size and quality? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites