The best knot for connecting leader to fly line and tippet?

[kimjensen 0]

Hi.

 

On my recent lines there's a ready made loop for connecting the leader to the flyline. I usually use a perfection loop on the leader to connect the leader to the flyline and tippet. My question is do you loose power transfer when connecting the whole thing with perfection loops?

[FrequentTyer 0]

The answer to your question is yes. But what I think you really want to know is does it matter. if the loops are small, it probably does not make much of a difference. You'll find lots of arguments on both sides of the loop debate.

[irish1 0]

The answer to your question is yes. But what I think you really want to know is does it matter. if the loops are small, it probably does not make much of a difference. You'll find lots of arguments on both sides of the loop debate.

 

FT is correct...You'll find lots of arguments, and here's the first. You should not tie the tippet directly to the fly line, a leader should always be between the fly line and tippet. The leader is usually a piece(s) of mono (or the like) of a heaver gage that helps the leader-tippet-fly combo turn over properly to present the fly properly. Don't mean to get picky but it is important.

 

I usually fish larger flys and have not found any difference in any fly line to leader connection as far as being able to turn the line over. I prefer the loop-to-loop connection due to the ease of replacing the leader. Leader to tippet I never, ever, use a loop-to-loop. If I have time the connection is always a blood knot.

[kimjensen 0]

Hi.

 

I don't attach tippet to the flyline, sorry if I didn't explain properly :-) My flyline has a ready made loop from factory, i take a leader and make a perfection loop and attach it to the flyline. I also attach the tippet to the leader with a perfection loop. I attach the fly with a Rapala knot. I have never used an other knot for the setup (flyline - leader - tippet) so i don't know if other knots would be more efficient?

Why don't you use loop-to-loop connection leader to tippet?

Edited March 3, 2012 by kimjensen

[JSzymczyk 0]

Hi.

 

I don't attach tippet to the flyline, sorry if I didn't explain properly :-) I attach the leader to the flyline and tippet for extending the leader and in the end attach the fly.

I guess it's a personal choise what knot people prefer? But I can't stop thinking that the loops probably don't transfer the power as effective. Hope to see more opinions.

 

I disagree about "loops don't transfer power"... I can not figure why that would be true. I use loop-to-loop connections all the time, ALWAYS for flyline to leader, and most of the time for leader to tippet. Been doing it that way for decades, and never had an issue with "power transfer" ?? I use double-surgeon's loops, or non-slip mono loop knots for my tippet/leader connection. I also sometimes use mini-tippet-rings for tippet/leader, and like them pretty well.

[perchjerker 0]

Hi.

 

I don't attach tippet to the flyline, sorry if I didn't explain properly :-) I attach the leader to the flyline and tippet for extending the leader and in the end attach the fly.

I guess it's a personal choise what knot people prefer? But I can't stop thinking that the loops probably don't transfer the power as effective. Hope to see more opinions.

 

I disagree about "loops don't transfer power"... I can not figure why that would be true. I use loop-to-loop connections all the time, ALWAYS for flyline to leader, and most of the time for leader to tippet. Been doing it that way for decades, and never had an issue with "power transfer" ?? I use double-surgeon's loops, or non-slip mono loop knots for my tippet/leader connection. I also sometimes use mini-tippet-rings for tippet/leader, and like them pretty well.

 

Believe it or not, this is the second time today I have had to agree with JZ.

 

I have fished loop-to-loop line to leaders and loop-to-loop leaders to tippet for several years now, and see absolutely no difference between the energy transfer between such connections, and I have used every conceivable line/leader connection there is while using both drawn and hand-knotted tapered leaders. I currently use polyester thread furled leaders connected to my lines by loop-to-loop, and tippets loop-to-loop connected to a Shorb Loop in the furled leader. I fish #12 dry flies and nymphs up through 1/0 deer hair and balsa bugs thus rigged. All with equal ease, and very good turnover. I do not believe I would experience such results with loop-to-loop0 connections if much, if any, energy was lost due to the loops.

 

I fish 3wt through 9wt lines thus rigged, and observations have been the same for all. I even fish a 5wt silk line thus rigged with no problems.

 

Given the array of lines and rods, both graphite and bamboo, I have used that were thus rigged, if energy loss was a problem with loop-to-loop connections, one would think that I would have been so unfortunate as to have experienced it by now.

[FrequentTyer 0]

Given the array of lines and rods, both graphite and bamboo, I have used that were thus rigged, if energy loss was a problem with loop-to-loop connections, one would think that I would have been so unfortunate as to have experienced it by now.

 

I agree 100% that the energy loss is not a problem. But it is a matter of physics that the energy loss happens. There will be a loss of energy at any point where the medium becomes non-homogeneous, so there will be some, albeit less, loss at blood knots and nail knots too. In fact, there will be energy loss in the tapered line or in an extruded leader due to the change in diameter. I use both nail knots and loop-to-loops and can't say that there is much of a difference in performance. I do have to wonder about tippet rings and swivels, but people obviously use them without problem.

[Woodinfliezz 0]

just so i dont have to make a new post whats the best knot to tie backing to fly line??

[jhammer 0]

just so i dont have to make a new post whats the best knot to tie backing to fly line??

 

I always use an Albright Knot.

[ditz2 0]

I am with Perchjerker and several others. Loop to loop for leader and tippet. I also use furled leaders in sweet water but mostly 4# mono leaders instead of thread. In the salt I did not like the furled leaders and went back to a 30# butt mono butt section and a mono tippet of 8 to 15#. This is what works for me.

[SilverCreek 0]

Given the array of lines and rods, both graphite and bamboo, I have used that were thus rigged, if energy loss was a problem with loop-to-loop connections, one would think that I would have been so unfortunate as to have experienced it by now.

 

I agree 100% that the energy loss is not a problem. But it is a matter of physics that the energy loss happens. There will be a loss of energy at any point where the medium becomes non-homogeneous, so there will be some, albeit less, loss at blood knots and nail knots too. In fact, there will be energy loss in the tapered line or in an extruded leader due to the change in diameter. I use both nail knots and loop-to-loops and can't say that there is much of a difference in performance. I do have to wonder about tippet rings and swivels, but people obviously use them without problem.

 

 

+1 on the above.

 

In fact the knots that place the the two end directly inline such as a blood/barrel knot are more efficient than knots that off set the ends from each other like the surgeon's knot.

 

Blood knot:

 

 

Surgeon knot:

 

 

But as a practical matter, all you need to do is to use a bit more energy on the cast to overcome the energy loss. So in practice we don't "feel" the difference because it is so small. Knots that "hinge" or knots that have too great a difference between the diameters of the two sections do affect the cast.

[FrequentTyer 0]

just so i dont have to make a new post whats the best knot to tie backing to fly line??

 

I always use an Albright Knot.

 

I always used an Albright knot, but just the other night I was spooling a new reel and couldn't remember how to tie the Albright, so I used a cinch knot. I have never had a fish take me into the backing, so it really does not matter for me, but I wonder if any of the guys that go for monster fish would have a problem with using a cinch knot? It seems like it should be just as secure as an Albright, but there has to be a reason the Albright has become the first choice here.

[heavynets 0]

The knotless connection for mono leaders.

 

http://www.warmwaterflytyer.com/pond.asp?page=4

 

Loop to loop for furled leaders.

[JSzymczyk 0]

Given the array of lines and rods, both graphite and bamboo, I have used that were thus rigged, if energy loss was a problem with loop-to-loop connections, one would think that I would have been so unfortunate as to have experienced it by now.

 

I agree 100% that the energy loss is not a problem. But it is a matter of physics that the energy loss happens. There will be a loss of energy at any point where the medium becomes non-homogeneous, so there will be some, albeit less, loss at blood knots and nail knots too. In fact, there will be energy loss in the tapered line or in an extruded leader due to the change in diameter. I use both nail knots and loop-to-loops and can't say that there is much of a difference in performance. I do have to wonder about tippet rings and swivels, but people obviously use them without problem.

 

yes, there will be energy "LOSS", exactly like your car will get less mpg at 57 miles per hour than at 56 miles per hour if all the other variables are equal (yeah right). The point is, while there may be an uneven distribution or expenditure of energy, there are SO MANY other variables at play during a cast that - as long as your connections are within reasonable limits - it just won't make the difference of a fart in a tornado.

 

By your logic for "power transfer" we should all be using level lines with a level leader - but that is not normally the goal we are trying to achieve in fly casting. How can you be sure there will be "less" loss at blood knots and nail knots? A loop-to-loop consists of doubled sections joined together firmly- thus the doubled sections could absorb, store, and release MORE of the available energy than a single strand... in theory anyhow.

 

How exactly are you trying to quantify this energy, and how much loss? It will all change as soon as you tie on a different fly. The properties of your line change with temperature. Some days you might have a sore elbow and cast differently than usual. Using a beadhead fly instead of a non-weighted one? Where is the wind in relation to your cast? Are you casting to fish 20 feet away or 70 feet away? There are just so many MANY variables in each cast that I think you're worrying over basically nothing. Use whatever method to attach things you are comfortable with.

[FrequentTyer 0]

yes, there will be energy "LOSS", exactly like your car will get less mpg at 57 miles per hour than at 56 miles per hour if all the other variables are equal (yeah right). The point is, while there may be an uneven distribution or expenditure of energy, there are SO MANY other variables at play during a cast that - as long as your connections are within reasonable limits - it just won't make the difference of a fart in a tornado.

 

By your logic for "power transfer" we should all be using level lines with a level leader - but that is not normally the goal we are trying to achieve in fly casting. How can you be sure there will be "less" loss at blood knots and nail knots? A loop-to-loop consists of doubled sections joined together firmly- thus the doubled sections could absorb, store, and release MORE of the available energy than a single strand... in theory anyhow.

 

How exactly are you trying to quantify this energy, and how much loss? It will all change as soon as you tie on a different fly. The properties of your line change with temperature. Some days you might have a sore elbow and cast differently than usual. Using a beadhead fly instead of a non-weighted one? Where is the wind in relation to your cast? Are you casting to fish 20 feet away or 70 feet away? There are just so many MANY variables in each cast that I think you're worrying over basically nothing. Use whatever method to attach things you are comfortable with.

 

Gosh JS, I honestly don't know if you are agreeing or disagreeing here. It seems to me that you are stating the same thing I stated, although you are using a lot more words and quotation marks.

We could argue endlessly about loop-to-loop verses blood knots, but as I stated above, I use them both. I'm not at all worried about the connections I use.

I am worried by the double strand energy release theory you propose above, but if it makes you feel better when you use loops then you should go right on believing that.

Serioulsy, I agree with you, but I do think it is important to understand these issues because we do need to adjust leaders for different flys and different fishing conditions. Understanding how the knots and materials impact on the leader function gives you more options when making adjustments. If anyone is interested in a detailed introduction to these sorts of issues, Joseph Kissane's book Drag Free Drift is an excellent primer.