Fly Line question ?

[ditz2 0]

I have to put in my .o2$ here. As I recall in the late 60's there were Levels, DT, and WF lines. Most of us started with a level floating line and probably in the area of an 8wt. I used a level for severl years because short of mail order that was about all that was available and the tapered lines were, for me, very expensive. DT was mostly considered a trout line and a WF was considered a bass line. The lines of those days were not even close to the quality of todays lines and my first WF line did not cast much better than my level lines and did not float as well. My second WF line was a SA top of the line model and I think it was an AirCel. It did cast a little better than my first one but it did not compare to todays lines. I never owned a DT line until about 3years ago and I put one on my 2wt 6' rod and it is an overline and I just love it. It casts much better than the designated line wt in WF and will cast just as far, if not farther, than the WF. I double haul it about 30% of the time. My thoughts are that if levels were available today made with todays quality process and materials that they would be decent casters for a lot of fishing situations and it would help hold down the high cost of flyfishing today. Will a level line cast as far as a good WF or as delicately as a DT or roll cast as well at DT? ....No but I have caught a lot of warmwater fish on levels. As a young man I could not justify a $25 line on $15 rod and $8 reel to catch some bluegill or bass when I could spend $5 on a line that worked almost as well and floated better than the WF line. ......Horrors of horrors, I also used straight mono leaders too

[SilverCreek 0]

"In the formula KE/average resisting force, VV is both in the numerator and in the denominator. Therefore, they cancel each other out."

 

 

VV is definitely in the numerator, but is not in the denominator at all. Show me where VV is in the denominator. The units for "force" are hardly the same as for "velocity".

 

 

 

The denominator "average resisting force" is aerodynamic drag. Drag is the force opposing the fly line. Put the formula for drag into the denominator and you will see that the denominator has VV.

 

"Drag is the aerodynamic force that opposes an aircraft's motion through the air.

 

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/drag1.html

 

Here is another example. Remember when we had the 55 mph speed limit? That is because a relatively small decrease in velocity from 65 to 55 results in a larger decrease in aerodynamic drag because of the V squared effect. This results in more MPG gain than the 15% drop in velocity.

[hairwing 0]

Is a tapered fly line necessary if you use a tapered leader?

Let me offer another way to look at my question and see if you think this would work or not. I will start out with a 80 ft. level line. Make a 6 ft. taper and then a 9 ft.transition to the tip. I am going to refer to the section from .040 to .009 as a leader and the 2 ft.section of .007 as a tippet.

80 ft. .045

2 ft. .040

2 ft. .035

2 ft. .033

3 ft. .019

2 ft. .017

.5 ft. .015

.5 ft. .013

.5ft. .011

.5ft .009

2 ft. .007

[perchjerker 0]

Since less energy is available the closer we get to the end of the fly line, if the line gets thinner with less mass; it follows that the lower mass fly line can go farther than if the fly line was of a constant diameter.

I don't see how it follows that the lower mass fly line goes farther. If the caster puts the same amount of energy (Kinetic Energy KE) into both, the lighter line must go faster to have the same energy as the heaver and therefore slower line. However, this does not mean that it goes farther. The distance the line travels can be found by this formula right out of a basic physics book: distance = KE / average resisting force

 

If both have the same KE and the same average resisting force, the distance will be identical. But will they have the same resisting force? The level line has a larger diameter at it's end than the DT line so that adds air resistance, slows the line and therefore decreases distance. The faster line has it's disadvantage too. Drag on an object through a fluid (air) increases at the SQUARE of velocity. So a small increase in velocity means a big increase in drag (resisting force) and therefore a decrease in distance.

 

Which would go farther? You would just have to cast them and see. Also, different lines, weights, manufacturers, etc. may give different results.

 

Sorry for the boring physics lesson. I just couldn't help myself.

 

heavynets..

 

You are definitely correct; but, you addressed something entirely different from what steeldrifter actually said. He is talking about loss of energy along the line as the cast unfurls as related to the diameter of that line. It stands to reason that as A line gets smaller in diameter, it loses capacity to transmit energy. If this were not true, every dry fly ever cast would hit the water like an anvil. Also, this is why electrical transmission lines get larger, or smaller, as the imparted voltage to be 'transported' goes up or down.

[mikechell 0]

Geezo peezo ... mathematics, really? Lets simplify this ...

Let's say you can cast a 6 weight line 40 feet on a 6 weight rod. If you put a 7 weight line on there, you will load the rod more on the back cast and get a little more distance on the forward cast. You can do this until you overload the rod, making the casting process too burdensome.

So, you put a section of 8 weight line in the middle of your line. Short distances, you are casting a 6 accurately and softly ... a little further, you are getting heavier until you are casting an 8, but the taper will still help deliver the fly like a 6. Maximum distance drops back to a six to prevent overloading the rod.

Run the numbers all you want, but what it boils down to is ... anybody who fishes a tapered or WF line will probably never go back to a level line. It just feels better.

[heavynets 0]

"In the formula KE/average resisting force, VV is both in the numerator and in the denominator. Therefore, they cancel each other out."

 

VV is definitely in the numerator, but is not in the denominator at all. Show me where VV is in the denominator. The units for "force" are hardly the same as for "velocity".

 

 

 

The denominator "average resisting force" is aerodynamic drag. Drag is the force opposing the fly line. Put the formula for drag into the denominator and you will see that the denominator has VV.

 

"Drag is the aerodynamic force that opposes an aircraft's motion through the air.

 

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/drag1.html

 

Here is another example. Remember when we had the 55 mph speed limit? That is because a relatively small decrease in velocity from 65 to 55 results in a larger decrease in aerodynamic drag because of the V squared effect. This results in more MPG gain than the 15% drop in velocity.

 

 

 

OK, I see where you are coming from. (I should have gotten that from your earlier post) I see how you are getting VV to cancel out. However, did you notice that mass is still in the equation and it is not the same for the last 10' for both lines? As the mass (in the numerator) goes up, so does the area and coefficient of drag (in the denominator). Wouldn't the ratio stays approximately constant and therefore the distance too? Seems to me that it's a strong possibility. That's why I say to cast them both and see if the difference in distance (if any) is worth the money.

 

I think there is a lot more going on here than first meets the eye. If it is so obvious that tapered cast farther, why do some people see different results. Perhaps different rods handle the lines differently. By that I mean, maybe level lines tend to have more open loops (more drag) with some rods. And never underestimate the power of suggestion. If you think it should go farther, maybe you unknowingly put a little more power into the cast. After all, you just spent a bunch of money for that fancy new line that everyone is talking about. It MUST be better.

 

 

[mikechell 0]

Bunch of money is not in my vocabulary, except as a reason NOT to buy something. I recently bought two 80' spools of WF 5 weight line for 10 bucks each. I love the internet.

[Rocco 0]

Friction on shooting line is certainly higher with a thicker L or DT line than with a thinner running line behind a forward taper. Similarly, the heavier forward section of a WF outside the guides loads the rod faster and deeper than a DT or L line thereby developing more line speed even before the haul comes into play. Same energy, longer casts.

 

The ultimate example is spey casting where noone uses a L line.

 

Rocco

[SilverCreek 0]

 

"In the formula KE/average resisting force, VV is both in the numerator and in the denominator. Therefore, they cancel each other out."

 

VV is definitely in the numerator, but is not in the denominator at all. Show me where VV is in the denominator. The units for "force" are hardly the same as for "velocity".

 

 

The denominator "average resisting force" is aerodynamic drag. Drag is the force opposing the fly line. Put the formula for drag into the denominator and you will see that the denominator has VV.

 

"Drag is the aerodynamic force that opposes an aircraft's motion through the air.

 

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/drag1.html

 

Here is another example. Remember when we had the 55 mph speed limit? That is because a relatively small decrease in velocity from 65 to 55 results in a larger decrease in aerodynamic drag because of the V squared effect. This results in more MPG gain than the 15% drop in velocity.

 

 

 

OK, I see where you are coming from. (I should have gotten that from your earlier post) I see how you are getting VV to cancel out. However, did you notice that mass is still in the equation and it is not the same for the last 10' for both lines? As the mass (in the numerator) goes up, so does the area and coefficient of drag (in the denominator). Wouldn't the ratio stays approximately constant and therefore the distance too? Seems to me that it's a strong possibility. That's why I say to cast them both and see if the difference in distance (if any) is worth the money.

 

I think there is a lot more going on here than first meets the eye. If it is so obvious that tapered cast farther, why do some people see different results. Perhaps different rods handle the lines differently. By that I mean, maybe level lines tend to have more open loops (more drag) with some rods. And never underestimate the power of suggestion. If you think it should go farther, maybe you unknowingly put a little more power into the cast. After all, you just spent a bunch of money for that fancy new line that everyone is talking about. It MUST be better.

 

 

 

 

Hi Heavynets,

 

The first law of thermodynamics determines what happens. Energy must be preserved. So as I added in the earlier post, as the line tapers down, mass density decreases. If the remaining energy is to transmitted, as line mass goes down line velocity must go up. As velocity goes up the line goes farther because it is covering more distance at a higher rate.

 

What actually happens though is that an experienced caster places just enough energy into the line to deliver the cast. No more, and no less. So if he is casting 40 feet, both lines will go 40 feet. However a tapered fly line takes less energy to cast that 40 feet. So it is more efficient as I stated before.

 

If we take casting to an extreme as in distance casting contests, this means a tapered fly line will cast a greater distance than a level fly line. That is why no one uses a level line in distance contests. If level lines were as or more efficient than a tapered line, they would be used.

 

At normal ranges that most all casters can reach, you can use a level fly line; but it will be more tiring, and it will deliver the fly with a bigger splash.

 

Do not assume that the diameter of a level fly line is the same at the 30 foot mark is identical for a level vs a tapered fly line. For the standard WF version of a level fly line, the tapered fly line will be thicker and have a greater linear mass density at the 30 foot mark than the level line of the same class.

 

The first 30 feet of a given weight class of fly line whether level or tapered have identical weight. That 30 foot weight in grams determines the line's weight class. When a fly line tapers, the taper creates a decreasing linear mass density. The mass that is removed to create the front taper is added to the non-tapered rear level section of the line. This is another reason that the tapered fly line is a more efficient casting instrument. It has more mass at the back end than the level line. The heavier back end of a tapered fly line drives the line forward because of the conservation of energy.

 

Years ago there was one application where a level line was the preferable line for fishing. That was in sinking lines. Before density compensated sinking fly lines, as a line tapered, there was less of the heavy sinking material between the core and the coating as the line tapered. So the tapered section of old style sinking lines were less dense. So the sinking line forms a belly under water with the tapered section riding higher. In those days we used level sinking lines to get a uniform sink rate.

 

Now with "density compensated" sinking lines, the sinking material gets denser in the tapered section to create a uniform sink rate.

 

The same problem occurred with floating fly lines. The material between the core and coating is very thin at the end of a tapered floating line. So the tips of floating fly lines would sink right out of the box. Now they are density compensated also so there are more micro bubbles in the material near the tip to keep the tips floating high.

 

As to whether the extra money for a tapered fly line worth the money is a personal decision. If someone wants to use a level line, I am not opposed.

[Steeldrifter 0]

All that any DT line is is a LEVEL LINE with TAPERED ENDS!!

 

That makes no sense perchjerker.

 

Steeldrifter...

 

This response makes me wonder if you truly understand what a level lines is, and what a double taper line is; in spite of the fact that I know that you do! Your 'analogy' with a tapered leader is so far off course as to be meaningless. The rest of your response is not germane to the subject.

 

For a refresher: A level line is of uniform diameter for it's entire length. A double taper line has a short taper on each end, with the bulk of the line being of uniform diameter for the bulk of it's length; ergo, it is nothing more than a level line with a short taper on each end.

 

I fail to see why this "...makes no sense...".

 

Does this not make sense now? Or was your response an "OOOOPS"?

 

Peace,

Frank

 

Frank I have been fly fishing for 25 yrs and build rods for my main source of living, I believe I have a very good understanding of fly lines thank you very much. As I said previous, I'm not gonna argue with someone I don't even know over the internet. You have your opinions, I have mine, simple as that. Take care.

 

Steve

[heavynets 0]

"The first law of thermodynamics determines what happens. Energy must be preserved. So as I added in the earlier post, as the line tapers down, mass density decreases. If the remaining energy is to transmitted, as line mass goes down line velocity must go up. As velocity goes up the line goes farther because it is covering more distance at a higher rate."

 

We have gone over this before. The formula, d = KE / average resisting force , shows that you are wrong. If the KE and resisting force (from all sources not just aerdynamic drag) then the distance will be the same. I'm not saying it, Sir Newton is.

 

When the tapered portion of the DT line is ready to roll over there is less KE available than in the level line at the same point because, as you pointed out, the mass removed from the taper was added to the rest of the line. More KE was used up to move this extra weight. Now the taper does speed up as it rolls out, but how can that possibly make it go farther? The taper can only go the length of the taper. After that it has to pull more of the heavier line. You can't get something for nothing. Work in = work out. Only by decreasing the average resisting force can the distance be increased with a given KE.

 

Now I'm not saying that DT or any other line doesn't have less resisting force than LL. Maybe it's from a tighter loop, or less drag on the guides or whatever. But Newton guarantees that it's NOT from the extra speed of the taper turning over.

 

If you can show that the above formula is wrong, there's a Nobel prize waiting for you.

 

"If we take casting to an extreme as in distance casting contests, this means a tapered fly line will cast a greater distance than a level fly line. That is why no one uses a level line in distance contests. If level lines were as or more efficient than a tapered line, they would be used."

 

And if your theory was correct everyone would use triangle taper to win distance contests. They don't. I fact, shooting heads are nearly the opposite of what you are describing as being so efficient. They have a short taper followed by a long heavy section (some far more that 30') and then taper down to a thin, light running line.

 

I've spent way too much time on this. I have to get ready for a trip. We'll have to agree to disagree, but I agree with Sir Newton.

[SilverCreek 0]

"The first law of thermodynamics determines what happens. Energy must be preserved. So as I added in the earlier post, as the line tapers down, mass density decreases. If the remaining energy is to transmitted, as line mass goes down line velocity must go up. As velocity goes up the line goes farther because it is covering more distance at a higher rate."

 

We have gone over this before. The formula, d = KE / average resisting force , shows that you are wrong. If the KE and resisting force (from all sources not just aerdynamic drag) then the distance will be the same. I'm not saying it, Sir Newton is.

 

When the tapered portion of the DT line is ready to roll over there is less KE available than in the level line at the same point because, as you pointed out, the mass removed from the taper was added to the rest of the line. More KE was used up to move this extra weight. Now the taper does speed up as it rolls out, but how can that possibly make it go farther? The taper can only go the length of the taper. After that it has to pull more of the heavier line. You can't get something for nothing. Work in = work out. Only by decreasing the average resisting force can the distance be increased with a given KE.

 

You left out what I said in the next paragraph.

 

"What actually happens though is that an experienced caster places just enough energy into the line to deliver the cast. No more, and no less. So if he is casting 40 feet, both lines will go 40 feet. However a tapered fly line takes less energy to cast that 40 feet. So it is more efficient as I stated before."

 

Suppose we have two identical fly lines except the one is tapered on the far end with a 8 foot taper and the other is level. We cast 30 feet of line using the identical amount of energy. After 22 feet of line has unrolled, the level line has 8 feet of level line left to unroll. The tapered fly line has 8 feet of taper left to unroll.

 

The residual energy in both lines should be about the same, but the level line has to unfurl 8 feet of level line and the tapered line has less mass to unfurl. This takes less energy plus there is less air resistance because there is less form drag for the thinner section of the tapered. The conservation of energy means it speeds up and at the end it will have more energy left tham the level line. You can use this excess to shoot line for a longer cast, or you can use less energy in the first place to cast just as far as the level line.

 

The general formula you gave, d = KE / average resisting force, does not mean both lines cast equally far. As I pointed out several posts ago, the average resisting force of a tapered fly line is less than for a level line and it will go farther. The average resisting force is aerodynamic drag and a tapered line has less form drag and less skin drag than a level line. So the with identical KEs, and a smaller "average resisting force" for a tapered line, the "d" of a tapered line will be greater.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Take care.

[perchjerker 0]

All that any DT line is is a LEVEL LINE with TAPERED ENDS!!

 

That makes no sense perchjerker.

 

Steeldrifter...

 

This response makes me wonder if you truly understand what a level lines is, and what a double taper line is; in spite of the fact that I know that you do! Your 'analogy' with a tapered leader is so far off course as to be meaningless. The rest of your response is not germane to the subject.

 

For a refresher: A level line is of uniform diameter for it's entire length. A double taper line has a short taper on each end, with the bulk of the line being of uniform diameter for the bulk of it's length; ergo, it is nothing more than a level line with a short taper on each end.

 

I fail to see why this "...makes no sense...".

 

Does this not make sense now? Or was your response an "OOOOPS"?

 

Peace,

Frank

 

Frank I have been fly fishing for 25 yrs and build rods for my main source of living, I believe I have a very good understanding of fly lines thank you very much. As I said previous, I'm not gonna argue with someone I don't even know over the internet. You have your opinions, I have mine, simple as that. Take care.

 

Steve

 

Steve...

 

I regret that you did NOT pick up on my note that I am aware of your knowledge of fly lines, giving credit where credit is due, and thus, seem to take my comment personally. As I bought my first fly rod in 1952, possibly long before you were born, I will leave the math to you to figure out how long I have been fly fishing; which, quite frankly, as well as your experience at building rods, has nothing to do with the 'facts' of my statement about a DT line being nothing more than a level line with a taper on each end.

 

No argument, just a debate!!

 

Cheers!

Frank

[Steeldrifter 0]

Whatever Frank. Like I said we all have our opinions. As I said I am done with this because it's taken a tone I don't get into, feel free to continue the "debate" but everyone make sure it stays on topic is all.

[perchjerker 0]

Steve...

 

I do not understand your inference about 'tone', as all I have done is give a straightforward rebuttal to your posts. At any rate, I rest my case in facts; not opinion.

 

Frank