What bugs me about fly tying....

[Simon Lidster 0]

Just had our monthly fly tying club meeting at my house this evening, and it made me think about the weak spots in our patterns.

 

For a dry fly, we can create very realistic tails, bodies, wings and thoraxes (thoraces?). But legs are my problem. Hackles really don't look like legs. There are too many of them. That's one reason I tried tying sparse snowshoe hare hackles in a foam groove.

 

Anyone got a solution they'd like to share? I know the proof of traditional patterns is that they catch fish, so the trout don't mind that the legs aren't realistic, but I do!

 

Simon

[flytyinfreak 0]

Just had our monthly fly tying club meeting at my house this evening, and it made me think about the weak spots in our patterns.

 

For a dry fly, we can create very realistic tails, bodies, wings and thoraxes (thoraces?). But legs are my problem. Hackles really don't look like legs. There are too many of them. That's one reason I tried tying sparse snowshoe hare hackles in a foam groove.

 

Anyone got a solution they'd like to share? I know the proof of traditional patterns is that they catch fish, so the trout don't mind that the legs aren't realistic, but I do!

 

Simon

Bummer! When my cousinm first started tying he was very worried about correct tails on dries and antennae on nymphs. I asked him how fish count? He replied" I don't know that they do." :EXACTLY!" I replied. Its not what matters to us, we ain't eatin that darn things, they are, So really what is important is that the fish like it, accept it and eat it, Forget what please you and focus on the fish!

 

Ok heres a bit more of a physica based answer. According to Wiki: Surface tension has the dimension of force per unit length, or of energy per unit area. The two are equivalent By sheer wieght, a mayfly needs only 6 points of contact in order to maintain the surface tension needed to defy gravity and therefore let it walk on water. The heavier and denser the material the more vast the surface area needed to keep an object bouyant. Hokks are heavy, and with the addition of other materials need more than 6 points of contact in order to maintain their bouyant state.

[switch10 0]

I've experimented with a few different types of legs. Mostly Japanese nymph leg substitutes like paint brush bristles and broom bristles (see my blog for examples).

 

I can't say I've caught more fish with the realistic legs, and they take too long to tie in/make the joints, so I've pretty much abandoned the idea.

[riffleriversteelheadslayer 0]

switch nailed it if your looking for realism look no further then a paint brush but be fair warned they take alot more time and your going to need something else to make it float like a foam body

[troutguy 0]

In the time you tie a paint brush legged semi-realistic. I will tie 6 Catskill style Cahills. Oh wait, I mostly fish streamers anyway. Never mind.

[FrequentTyer 0]

I hate the "tie flys for the fish" platitude. Tie for yourself and you will have confidence in your flys! But I've got to admit realistic legs on a dry fly is a bit extream. On a properly tied dry fly they will not even touch the surface. Maybe picked out guard hairs on a parachute pattern?

By the way, fish can count. But I don't think they do so at mealtime.

Mike.

[tctrout 0]

I hate the "tie flys for the fish" platitude. Tie for yourself and you will have confidence in your flys! But I've got to admit realistic legs on a dry fly is a bit extream. On a properly tied dry fly they will not even touch the surface. Maybe picked out guard hairs on a parachute pattern?

By the way, fish can count. But I don't think they do so at mealtime.

Mike.

Neat article to reference; I haven't read it before.

 

As far as patterns, I agree that Flytyinfreak is spot-on; if a fish will eat it, then they eat it. I do fish in very high-pressured areas, thus I tend to tie more parachutes, no-hackles, and comparaduns simply for the reasons you suggest. The Catskill dry flies look awfully pretty, but I do have more success on other styles of flies.

 

TC

[dontheo 0]

I am just a plain old leg man. Thoraxes and tails are ok but legs drive me nuts. I fish mainly pocket type fast water so my hackle nay be a little heavier. That was a good topic for your meeting. I also fish a lot of haystacks or comparasuns. They don't really have legs except the deer hair splayed out at 90 degrees. I wonder what that means?

[Crackaig 0]

Oliver Edwards did a pattern that uses the butts of the microfiberts from the tail for legs, called the Footprint Dun. Its not the easiest to tie and doesn't float well, but it does have the correct number of legs. However, it doesn't stand on the surface like a natural fly. More like a drowned fly. I'd say it is almost impossible to get a fly to stand up like a natural does with just the 6 or 7 points of contact.

 

The biggest problem in doing this is the hook. The weight distribution is just all wrong. The majority of a fly's weight is just above where the legs are. The weight of the hook is mostly at the tail end. An upside down pattern might help a little. You can get these to sit with the abdomen just touching the surface and the legs holding up the thorax. Detached bodies are also a way to bring the weight of the hook forward. If you go down that road you could end up tying some large flies on minuscule hooks. If you would be tying a fly on a 16 to match the hatch then a hook as small as size 24 may be needed to get the hook to the balance point. That creates other problems with hooking and playing of fish.

 

Its a difficult one to crack. If you do come up with an answer, I'm sure we all want to know about it.

 

Cheers,

C.

[JSzymczyk 0]

If a fish will eat a fly with a giant steel hook coming out it's a**, I find it impossible to believe they care how many so-called legs it has.

 

By all means tie the flies which make YOU happy- that is what it is all about and why it is more art than science.

 

I don't often fish dry flies, but when I do it is usually a Stimulator or an EHC. Both of those have hackle all over the place and I catch plenty of fish.

 

I think it has been conclusively demonstrated about a billion times (maybe more), that SUGGESTIVE flies are "better" all around than imitative flies.

[flysmallie 0]

If a fish will eat a fly with a giant steel hook coming out it's a**, I find it impossible to believe they care how many so-called legs it has.

 

Bingo.

[utyer 0]

I like the look of these, and so far the fish have agreed. They sit "right" on the water, and float well, best of all, they are easy and quick to tie. Just tailing (which doesn't hit the water,) fine dubbing and a deer hair wing. The hooks are the Mustad 37160 which I straighten out just a bit.

 

 

[dontheo 0]

I have often woundered about things like having to get the hackle just right and the so called "buggy look" while at the same time having this enormous piece of stell just below the flies tail. And everyone has opinions on the tail as to the number of fibers, how they are solayted, even the barred effect of varius materials, yet ther eis still this piece of stell directly under it. And why does the pirce of steel need to be clean? Get a littl piece of moss on it and no fish will ever take it.

 

And I know everyone has spit in the water at some time in their life and seen a fish rise to it.

 

That would tend to lead me to believe that size and color are the most importnt factors and during some feeding frenzys it just does not matter.

[Will K 0]

Tie what you enjoy and have fun tying. If you feel like more realistic looking patterns would be cool, do it! This is an art after all! have fun with it.

 

with that said, search back issues of hatches magazine (it may be on the site actually) for Jason Borger's emerger. Gorgeous little emerger pattern using the stem ends of pheasant tail fibers for legs. It is a parachute so hackles are used... but it's a nice tie and pretty easy tie.

 

Also, check out the "Flyfishfood" blog (Curtis Fry on here). He recently put a video up of a very very easy to tie mayfly that looks pretty darn real and is super easy to cook.

 

I will say this though, that traditional style, especially the buggier styles (wulff's or stimulators for examples) are much better in fast water. calmer water, break out your realistics.

 

One other thing, all that hackle may not look like legs per se, but it may look like lots of motion or some other trigger to the fish - dont discount hackled flies... by all means just focus on the flies that you find fun to tie and fish now though!

[throwinflys 0]

I like the look of these, and so far the fish have agreed. They sit "right" on the water, and float well, best of all, they are easy and quick to tie. Just tailing (which doesn't hit the water,) fine dubbing and a deer hair wing. The hooks are the Mustad 37160 which I straighten out just a bit.

 

I've seen patterns like this before and i have to say that the body shape looks much more accurate. i've only worried that they wouldn't float as well or possibly affect being able to hook up with the hook facing up. any issues with missing fish on these?