Randyflycaster 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2013 I'm trying to tie small caddis emergers. I'm using 8/0 thread. When I tie the hair on it rolls to the side of the hook. Is this a problem caused by not putting enough tension on the thread? Because I've broken the thread several times, I'm reluctant to put too much tension on it. Will head cement help keep the hair in place? Thanks, Randy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riffleriversteelheadslayer 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2013 if you start your hair on the near side of the hook the hair will roll to the top of the hook where it belongs but it sounds to me like your not getting a good thread base on the hook before you start tying materials in Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crackaig 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2013 Randy, your explanation doesn't really give enough information to solve the problem. Is the rest of the dressing rolling around as well? Is it when you are tying the hair on that the hair rolls around, or after? Are you trying to attach the hair to bare shank or a bed of thread? How are you trying to tie the hair in? (Are you using pinch and loop?) What kind of hair is it? It isn't fashionable but I was always taught to lay a smooth even bed of thread all the way along the hook shank. No gaps, no overlapping wraps. Then tie the rest of the fly on the way back to the eye. None of the running backwards and forwards along the hook shank that is so popular in the videos I see. 90% of flies can be tied with one pass of thread each way. Materials twisting on the hook is often a symptom of not doing this. Cheers, C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2013 Not enough tension is one problem but are you letting go of the hair wing too early? Keep holding the hair until you have it secured to the hook with enough wraps of thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rockworm 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2013 The most likely solutions to this problem have been addressed: lay down a good thread base and hold your material firmly until it is well anchored. It is also possible you are using too much hair. Reduce your wing diameter by 50% and see if you still have a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SilverCreek 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2013 There are two techniques you need to master for putting material on the hook and to keep it from spinning. The first is the pinch and Loose Loop Method. It is described below in the Orvis Fly-Tying Manual by Tom Rosenbauer.: "Loosen your thumb and forefinger slightly, and bring a loose loop of thread over the top of the material and around the hook. No tension should be on the thread. When the bobbin is directly below the hook, pull straight down while pinching your forefinger tightly to the far side of the hook. Loosen the tension slightly and repeat the process three times, putting more tension on each successive wrap." The other method is for tying and placing hair on the hook for a wing such as an elk hair caddis. It is called the Loose Noose Method. Wrap a thread base at the tie in point. Pinch the elk hair with your index finger on the far side of the hook and your thumb on the near side of the hook. Position the elk hair above the tie in spot, but not on the tie in spot. Bring the thread up on the near side of the hook and make one full loose wrap of thread around the hair only, not the hook. As you make the second loose wrap, bring the thread over the top of the hair and down the far side and catch the far side of the hook, then make the third complete wrap. Let the bobbin hang free. This will keep light tension on the elk hair and allow you to check to be sure the elk hair is centered on the top of the hook. Make a couple of tight thread wraps to secure and help flair the hair. Take two tight thread wraps through the hair butts to secure the elk hair in place. See this for photos: http://www.orvis.com/intro.aspx?subject=5051 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyFishin'Jam 0 Report post Posted May 31, 2013 I love the loose loop method for slippery hair. Very good technique, you can also make say a hairwing stand up by taking wraps around it, or you can even mount it backwards and fold it over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tee Nootsie Brasseau 0 Report post Posted June 1, 2013 Becoup year ago my papa taught me lay a good thread base all along and to put a drop of head cement on top for winged. If this is happen and you start your loop with material on your side you can not make slip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Randyflycaster 0 Report post Posted June 1, 2013 Thanks for the great advice. I wasn't wrapping a full thread base around the shank, and I wasn't using the methods of securing (tying in) the hair wing mentioned above. BTW, I found these images of the Loose Loop Method: http://forums.fishusa.com/Using-the-quotLoose-Loopquot-technique-m385413.aspx Randy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoebop 0 Report post Posted June 1, 2013 There are two techniques you need to master for putting material on the hook and to keep it from spinning. The first is the pinch and Loose Loop Method. It is described below in the Orvis Fly-Tying Manual by Tom Rosenbauer.: "Loosen your thumb and forefinger slightly, and bring a loose loop of thread over the top of the material and around the hook. No tension should be on the thread. When the bobbin is directly below the hook, pull straight down while pinching your forefinger tightly to the far side of the hook. Loosen the tension slightly and repeat the process three times, putting more tension on each successive wrap." The other method is for tying and placing hair on the hook for a wing such as an elk hair caddis. It is called the Loose Noose Method. Wrap a thread base at the tie in point. Pinch the elk hair with your index finger on the far side of the hook and your thumb on the near side of the hook. Position the elk hair above the tie in spot, but not on the tie in spot. Bring the thread up on the near side of the hook and make one full loose wrap of thread around the hair only, not the hook. As you make the second loose wrap, bring the thread over the top of the hair and down the far side and catch the far side of the hook, then make the third complete wrap. Let the bobbin hang free. This will keep light tension on the elk hair and allow you to check to be sure the elk hair is centered on the top of the hook. Make a couple of tight thread wraps to secure and help flair the hair. Take two tight thread wraps through the hair butts to secure the elk hair in place. See this for photos: http://www.orvis.com/intro.aspx?subject=5051 This works well in almost every situation except when I tie a hairwing with squirrel's tail. That stuff is so slippery that it comes right out no matter how it's wound. I found I had to use some thin glue (so it penetrated the hair bunch) as soon as I had it secured with the aforementioned technique. I imagine that will work well for other slippery hairwings also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riffleriversteelheadslayer 0 Report post Posted June 1, 2013 for tying squirrel tail in try running two loops around just the hair befor lashing it to the hook I use alot of squirell and never need glue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyFishin'Jam 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2013 ^ this is what Kirk taught me dealing with squirrel, works a treat! Now getting a tiny neat head is another story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crackaig 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2013 Shoebop, Squirrel hair is law unto itself. The problem is it doesn't compress at all. With other hairs I can secure a wing so tight on a salmon fly that you can bend the hook with it without using any glue. This is done by tying the hair in then taking a locking turn around the butts only, then tying that down to the shank. As squirrel doesn't compress this doesn't work. The solution is to work some glue into the trimmed butts. It is one of the few times I do use glue to strengthen the tying. You are not alone with that. Cheers, C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoebop 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2013 Thanks Crackaig. It seemed no matter how tight I got it or how many wraps (even wraps around the hairs only), the hairs just pulled out when I simply groomed the bunch rearward with my fingers. A dab of superglue on the butts was the answer for me too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Davidpensfan87 0 Report post Posted June 4, 2013 I agree with everything that has been said about the thread base, thread tension, and pinch loops. I would like to add that you can, once you've secured the elk hair, pull the waste end back and wrap two or three wraps in front of the hair. This ties together the elk hair to the hook shank. David. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites