Hackle Turns Flat

[AR_FlyFisher 0]

New to the board and new to tying. My first 2-3 flies actually went pretty well. I impressed myself anyway. Now I can't seem to wrap hackle to save my life. I attach it to the hook just fine with the dull/convex side up, but as I begin to wrap it the hackle turns flat. This make it where the barbs don't stick out neither laying forward nor back. Instead it just looks like a bunch of fluff. Any tips/ideas for a struggling beginner?

[Bryon Anderson 0]

Not sure what you mean by "turns flat"...could you post a pic of the problem you're having? That would help us identify what's going on and possibly how to fix it. Welcome to the forum, by the way.

[JSzymczyk 0]

hard to say without more info, but perhaps you are trying to start wrapping with the thickest, stiffest part of the hackle. Strip off the "fluff" and tie in the feather where the stem (rachis) gets thinner and more even.

 

It is also possible that your feathers are not suited to to task.

[Randyflycaster 0]

Perhaps this thread from this forum will help:

 

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=76214

 

Randy

[phg 0]

I agree with JSzymczyk, you are probably trying to start too low on the feather. Clip off another 1/2" and see if that helps. Chicken neck hackle feathers tend to have an oval stem, but the closer you get to the butt end, the less pronounced the oval is. Usually, only the top 1/2 of a neck feather is usable for hackling.

[Crackaig 0]

As others have said we need to know more. Specifically what kind of hackle you are trying to wrap and the shape of hackle you are looking to form.

 

General points though I can make. A hackle stem is not round or square but a sort of oval shape. The problem is possibly caused by trying to stand the oval hackle stem on its "points" like trying to stand a rugby ball or American football on end. It doesn't want to. What makes it worse is that the hackle barbs come off the stem in such a way that they are trying to push the stem "off end". This causes the hackle to twist over when you wrap. This is mostly a problem on cock hackles.

 

However we don't know what kind of hackle you are using. The best way for us is if we could see how you are tying your hackle in and when it is turning on you in a couple of photos. If you are working to a pattern you have a picture of, that would help as well, then we can see what you are trying to achieve. We are not trying to be awkward but we could spend ages answering the wrong problem and we would rather give you help that sorts the problem for you.

 

Cheers,

C.

[AR_FlyFisher 0]

Thanks for the replies. I think I am probably starting too low on the feather and trimming the stem might do the trick. If not, I will post back with more details and some pictures. This is the particular fly that was giving me trouble when I gave up and found this forum:

 

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flytying/fotw/51898fotw.php

 

I was using black hackle (I think saddle). Would neck hackle work better? I bought a half cape of grizzly, but don't have any black (and don't have the funds to buy another half cape). Are there cheaper alternatives?

 

Thanks again!

[rockworm 0]

Cheaper alternatives? Absolutely. That fly could be tied with starling neck or covert feathers. A starling cape is less expensive than even a half-neck and has far more feathers in the 14-18 range, suitable for the pattern shown.

[Crackaig 0]

Rockworm's idea of using a starling hackle for that fly is excellent, in my experience using the grizzle you have will work every bit as well as black.

 

What that fly is showing is a hackle tied as for a dry fly. I have a technique I developed some years ago which is different to what most people do to stop the hackle twisting. You will find that it is the beginning of winding the hackle that sets it up for the rest. It it starts to twist there is no stopping it. Here's what I do based solely on the fact it works.

 

These are instructions for right handed tiers. When you are ready for the hackle select your hackle and hold it in front of yourself with the point to your left and the convex side facing you. Trim off any fluffy parts you don't want. Now for some fancy scissor work. You need to make two cuts along side the stem, one above and one below. The one above is the difficult one to get right.

 

Look at the length of hook shank you are going to cover with hackle. This length is your guide to how long the cuts should be.

 

Above Cut. Cut twice the distance of hook shank you are covering with hackle. Start the cut a little way from the stem and taper it down to the stem so that half way along the cut you are cutting the fibres away tight to the stem.

 

Below Cut. This is equal the distance of hook shank you are going to cover with hackle, ie. half as long as the cut above. It is simply a cut level with the stem and a little way from it.

 

Here is a picture of a very large hackle I have trimmed in this way just to illustrate the cuts.

Try to get the top cut to taper closer to the stem than I have. Though it doesn't matter too much.

 

Tie the hackle in by the trimmed end. The short stubs will act as a key to help the thread grip the hackle. The position you want to tie it to the hook shank I would describe like this viewed from the hook eye ".o" where the full stop is the stem and the "o" the hook shank.

 

When you begin to wind the first section of the stem to lie against the hook shank has now been trimmed off square, so it will sit easier how you want it. As the start is "right" the hackle will continue right. When I demonstrate this I use a full saddle hackle and hold at least 8 to 10 inches from the hook shank as I wind. Showing that I am not exerting any twisting motion on the stem as I wind to make it lie as I want it to. This is the method Piker20 mentioned in another post. (I didn't put this in there as the question was about game bird hackles, which are totally different).

 

It is quite a difficult technique to describe, but in reality it takes no longer then the usual technique of pulling the fibres off, and struggling to get it to lie right. Once you get to grips with this technique you will find it easy to produce hackles like this.

Cheers,

C.

[AR_FlyFisher 0]

Crackaig,

 

Very detailed post and way more specific than I was expecting. Thanks a ton! I will definitely try this method tonight.

[Sundance 0]

A lot of good advice above. One further note...

 

Some hackle will twist and/or go flat no matter what you do with it. I have found that on several occasions when tying with Metz hackles. If you buy a neck or saddle that does that, take it back. There is no remedy beyond spending a lot of time fiddling and tweaking. I have never had that happen with a Whiting neck or saddle.

 

Take some care when buying hackles. It is nearly impossible to tie a good dry fly with the dull side forward if the feathers are cupped. So when you buy, be sure the barbs come straight out from the rachis and that each feather will lie flat on a table with no cupping in either direction.

[BigRedNZ 0]

Thanks for the great advice guys, saved me wasting time asking this again...