Smallest Thread Possible?

[flytire 0]

12/0 veevus threads for all trout flies

[notenuftoys 0]

12/0 veevus threads for all trout flies

 

I started with UNI 8/0 for all trout flies, but I'm moving to Veevus 12/0. I love that thread. Very little build-up and plenty strong.

[phg 0]

Grifith's 14/0 Sheer is nice thread, but it's equivalent to Uni 8/0 in size. As noted above, the "aught" system is not a standard, and each manufacturer is free to abuse the system as they see fit, for marketing advantage. I hate that, as I prefer the aughts to denier, but denier is somewhat standard. Denier is a weight, and does not take into consideration tightness of the twist nor differences in formulation, so two threads with the same denier may still have significant differences in size and tying characteristics.

 

That said, I like to use 3/0 for size 8 and larger, Danville 6/0 for size 10 to 14, and Uni 8/0 for 16 to 20. I've recently gotten a couple of spools of Veevus, and will probably start using that for all my 20's and 22's.

 

I recently was on Chris Helm's site where he discusses, in some detail, this very issue, and also presents a chart showing how the various brands of thread compare to each other. My experience agrees pretty much with what he presents. You can find the article and chart here: http://whitetailflytieing.com/thread/

[flytire 0]

the "aught" system WAS the "standard" until somebody decided to use the "denier" system

 

i recently read somewhere on the internet that denier equals the number of strands/filaments that make up the thread

 

example: 70 denier = 70 strands/filaments etc

 

this kinda makes sense as a 20 denier would equal the finest thread and a 240 denier would equal the largest of threads

 

please dont take the above as gospel. it was just something i read on the internet (i dont remember where, i have crs (cant remember shit) syndrome)

 

it sure would be nice of the manufacturers to label their spools with both measurement systems "aught" and "denier". it wouldnt cost any more and would satisfy both camps who like one system or the other

[lostnwilderness 0]

WOW. This question has turned up some awesome answers that you all! This has been VERY VERY informative!!!!

[phg 0]

the "aught" system WAS the "standard" until somebody decided to use the "denier" system

 

i recently read somewhere on the internet that denier equals the number of strands/filaments that make up the thread

 

example: 70 denier = 70 strands/filaments etc

 

this kinda makes sense as a 20 denier would equal the finest thread and a 240 denier would equal the largest of threads

 

please dont take the above as gospel. it was just something i read on the internet (i dont remember where, i have crs (cant remember shit) syndrome)

 

it sure would be nice of the manufacturers to label their spools with both measurement systems "aught" and "denier". it wouldnt cost any more and would satisfy both camps who like one system or the other

Not quite. Denier is a unit of mass (weight,) in grams, of a length of thread 9000 meters long. The higher the denier, the denser the thread. Generally, density = thickness, but not always. Also, nylon, polyester and GSP all have different densities, so 170 denier polyester will not be the same thickness as 170 denier nylon, and silk, being a natural fiber, is different still.

 

Check out this Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denier_%28unit%29#Denier

[flytire 0]

again its what somebody else wrote on the internet! not me!

 

so how do they get higher denier? more strands? less strands? tell us how its made!

 

for the amount of time i have left in my personal fly tying "denier" is irrelevant as long as the spool has the old standard "aught" on it i'm golden.

 

i have enough "aught" thread to last me until i'm dead

[phg 0]

The higher the denier, the denser the thread.

so how do they get higher denier? more strands? less strands? tell us how its made!

 

for the amount of time i have left in my personal fly tying "denier" is irrelevant as long as the spool has the old standard "aught" on it i'm golden

Well, I'm not an expert on the manufacture of thread, but I would think that either more strands or thicker strands would do it. I think that the thickness of the individual filaments is dependent on the manufacturing process, and it is easier, and more cost effective, to add more filaments than it is to make the filaments thicker. To complicate things, some threads, like Uni-Thread are fused, others, like Danville Flymaster are not.

 

Like you, I have a pretty good supply of "aught" thread, which I prefer to use.

[nhflyfishnh 0]

For hooks in the 20's, I use UNI's 17/0 Trico. Have also used Danville's Spiderweb at 30 denier. Both work well.

[cheech 0]

the "aught" system WAS the "standard" until somebody decided to use the "denier" system

 

i recently read somewhere on the internet that denier equals the number of strands/filaments that make up the thread

 

example: 70 denier = 70 strands/filaments etc

 

this kinda makes sense as a 20 denier would equal the finest thread and a 240 denier would equal the largest of threads

 

please dont take the above as gospel. it was just something i read on the internet (i dont remember where, i have crs (cant remember shit) syndrome)

 

it sure would be nice of the manufacturers to label their spools with both measurement systems "aught" and "denier". it wouldnt cost any more and would satisfy both camps who like one system or the other

Not quite. Denier is a unit of mass (weight,) in grams, of a length of thread 9000 meters long. The higher the denier, the denser the thread. Generally, density = thickness, but not always. Also, nylon, polyester and GSP all have different densities, so 170 denier polyester will not be the same thickness as 170 denier nylon, and silk, being a natural fiber, is different still.

 

Check out this Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denier_%28unit%29#Denier

This is the most important thing to consider when choosing thread. Denier weight is much more than the X/0 system. I find it interesting that the Griffs 14/0, Uni 8/0, and Benecci 12/0 are basically the same exact size.

 

I'm with Kimo. Uni 17/0 Trico is amazing stuff, and can be used on many sizes of flies. I tie most of my parachutes with it.

[Jaydub 0]

As mentioned the problem with the "aught' system is you can't compare one brand to another. 6/0 Uni is not the same as 6/0 Danville etc.

 

For a majority of my fles, from Steelhead patterns down to size 16 or so, I use Danville 6/0. I will use stronger thread if it's needed for a particular fly. For smaller flies I use mostly Griffith's Sheer or Bennechi, but recently I've also been trying the Veevus and TMC threads.

[lostnwilderness 0]

So to tack on to my original question, what would yall recommend for a small light gel spun type thread? I tie a number of smaller deer hair flies sz.20-14 (the pattern is the "speck" aka the irresistible) I have yet to find a great thread for spinning deerhair on smaller flies so I just end up using my standard uni thread. Any "advanced" advice?

[utyer 0]

UNI GSP thread is almost 12 bucks a spool and a 50 yard spool at that. J Stockard sells Veevus GSP thread for 3.26 and its a 75 yard spool. The Veevus GSP comes in 100 Denier, but it lays flat, so it won't bulk up too much. I haven't tried either the UNI, or the Veevus GSP, but I will be getting some Veevus threads soon. White is the only color you need.

[lostnwilderness 0]

utyer, you are the man. Thanks so much for how much you contribute to this forum. You have helped me and I am sure countless other folks in our own personal progressions. Thank you!!!

[Bugsy 0]

Size 20 is awfully small for a hair body. I tie Goddard Caddis down to #18 at times, but I never went below #16 on Irresistibles when I did tie them.

 

In my experience, you don't need a super thread for tying these. The reason being is that it doesn't take a lot of thread strength to cinch down these small clumps securely. Spinning and stacking large bug bodies and streamer heads is a different matter.

 

I have GSP in 50d and 30d, and the 50d would be plenty small for these little guys. But GSP complicates tying a bit with its slippery nature, and GSP in these fine diameters can easily slice through those small clumps of deer, so pull with caution. I've found even Danville 6/0 to work just fine on the above flies. Uni-Nylon 70d (not the bonded polyester) is another one I like.