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Fish For Life

Big flys with small hooks

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Well, I'm with you all the way till you said fishing is luck.

 

When I don't catch anything, it's bad luck. When I do, it's skill.

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All interesting. But guys, remember FFL's original question concerned whether it's a good idea to tie flies that are five or six times longer than the hook. In saltwater I've had numerous fish bite the tip off the tails of my jigs, so as a general rule, I'm suggesting his answer is No. (-:

 

I disagree. It still goes back to the species & size that the flies will be used to target. No, I would not tie an 8" fly on a size 2 hook, but a shorter shank size 3/0 might be fine. There still needs to be sufficient gape. It's all relative. The hook size also still has to fit the target species, and the fly size. Of course there are also limitations of the rods being used. I would not try tying a 14" fly on a 3/0 hook, unless that hook had enough gape so that the materials did not interfere with the hooking abilities, but going up to a 6/0 size hook might also not be practical if the rod being used is not sufficient enough to cast such a fly, or effectively set a 6/0 hook.

 

The only fish species I've ever had bite tails off of flies has been Bluefish. If you're talking about plastic baits on jigs, that's different than flies. I've had other species wear the tails off of flies & jigs, but again there's a difference.

 

Everything we do will require some compromises. The shorter shank hooks with bigger flies have more benefits than disadvantages. There will always be short striking fish, but when larger fish are being targeted, the shorts strikes are something that has to be lived with. It makes little sense to go with a longer hook, if it results in a greater loss of hooked fish, even thought it may increase the hook-ups from smaller fish.

 

Even in freshwater, the fly size/hook size still should fit the species & size as best can be determined. However, this question is specifically referring to streamer style flies, and there are different types so again an appropriate hook should be selected. But, since there are not hard & fast rules in tying, should the OP choose to not use a shorter hook relative to the fly size, that is his choice. IMO, for the examples he posted, and the purpose for which those types of flies are used most, the shorter hooks are more benefit than not.

 

Mike, IMO we make our own luck! wink.png

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Sorry Mike, but I have to disagree with your view that "fish with large mouths, inhale almost every time, from behind". As a freshwater guy you obviously have not seen many speckled trout hit. Everyone seems to be operating under the notion that fish hit their prey from the same level in the water column or that they always hit while moving forward (if I am misreading then I apologize). Trout, and other ambush feeders on the flats, most often hit their prey from below as they swim or float past, and try to swallow the prey whole that way. I say try, since I have caught small trout on plugs larger than the fish. If you are fishing in the upper half of the water column, they will often strike a bit late and miss the fly or lure, but they are not coming from the rear but below. When plug fishing, I often see trout and other ambush feeders like snook hooked on the front trebles just as often of not more often than the rear ones, and when fishing long bodied flies I don't usually have problems with short striking unless other species like bluefish or mackerel show up. This method of feeding is why the fishing for snook and trout will often die when the tide stops, no matter how hot the bite is, and only start up again when the tide does. They sit and wait for the food to pass overhead. Thus, in the salt they don't have to hit from below and behind, but just below. This is why long flies on shorter hooks like the DC Wiggler are so effective (I have caught a ton of trout on a 4-5 inch wiggler on a #2 hook)

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A lot of it boils down to dentition. Species evolved to fit their niche.

 

Sheepshead developed Sheep like teeth to nibble on barnacles and crush molluscs and crusaceans. There are a lot of species that fill this niche in various parts of the world.

 

Mackerel species slash at their prey, often biting it in two. With mode of attack, any old strike will work. Wherever they hit a prey fish, they cripple it so the next pass is easy. Big mouth and small prey, they can engulf the first pass. Lures with hooks far back are more effective for the Mackerel family

 

Fish with grasping teeth like Stripers, LM Bass, Grouper and Weakfish aim for the head because grabbing a fish far back isn't nearly as effective and the baitfish can get away. I remove the tail hook from the Mann's Stretch 30 when trolling for Grouper. It is safer for me and for the fish I release plus I don't catch so dang many Mackerel and Kingfish.

 

I fish mostly for Snook, Tarpon and LM Bass. I fish with big flies with the hook way forward.

 

Redfish are really strange to me. Thier mouth is under their head yet they chase mullet and other baitfish like Snook and Bass. Their under slung mouth with no grasping teeth gives them a distinct disadvantage but they somehow manage to feed themselves.

post-50879-0-39468400-1398079329_thumb.jpg

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Almost all fish inhale their prey. It is a hydrodynamic fact that you can't fill an already full container.

Again, I am just trying to put things in my perspective ... not saying anyone else's opinions are wrong. Hell, I might not be thinking about this correctly, but what follows mikes the most sense to me, and it seems to be what I see on the videos and documentaries.

 

Since water is not compressible ...

 

It's impossible to get the fish in the bucket this way.

 

There are only two ways to get food in a fish's mouth (the bucket).

Inhale:

 

 

Or don't close the gills (sieve style):

 

 

 

Being a sieve requires speeds faster than your prey can flee, all the way through the take ... pelagic fish are fast and probably feed this way when hitting bait balls, etc. However, this is not as energy efficient as getting close enough to inhale, then ending the chase with a quick opening of the mouth. Even fast swimming fish have evolved to do this so quickly it's much more efficient than swimming faster than your prey with mouth and gills open.

Maybe it's not always from behind ... but the "take" seems to work this way.

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For ambush predators Pike and zander they 99% of the time hit the bait as this pic shows.

post-42518-0-56162100-1398094140_thumb.jpg

The time it takes for the bait to then be turned and swallowed varies a lot depending on the prey size. I've seen some pike carrying around a large fish for over an hour.

This image shows a rubber lure taken in the same manner. The hook positioning on this type of bait means the hooks often find a set at this angle.

post-42518-0-65467100-1398094117_thumb.jpg

 

If a pike simply inhaled their meals, small baits would be taken far back a lot. But that simply isn't the case. I have landed 18lb fish on baits 2 inch long, hooked in the scissors or front of the mouth.

 

Perch are big inhalers. Following Mikes bucket pics they are type 3 swallowers. I've had the fortune to witness a 3lb+ perch trying to pick up a roach bait intended for pike. They vent their gills and try to suck in the prey. Its one reason even small perch swallow baits so big and so far.

 

Trout I'm not sure about. I've only hooked trout on crankbaits when chasing pike and they have always been on the tail hook.

On flies around fry time the trout will slash fry, often leaving stunned fish littering the surface before returning and picking up the scraps.

 

I have raised the question about tandem flies and two hooks before in the forum and there was not a clear vote for people hooking on the rear or front hooks. I will leave my hooks front and back from now on for Trout flies. In waters that contains Pike or perch I will only fish a front hook as I believe this limits hooks being too deep in the fish but does not reduce my chances of hooking them.

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Actually Mike, fish that "inhale" like groupers, close their mouth and gill flaps, squeezing all the water out. Then they open their mouth and buccal cavity with the gill flap still closed, creating a suction as water rushes into the buccal cavity. They again squeeze the water out before swallowing.

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If we're not careful this thread might start becoming educational and I'm sure there's something in the small print about that.............

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Actually Mike, fish that "inhale" like groupers, close their mouth and gill flaps, squeezing all the water out. Then they open their mouth and buccal cavity with the gill flap still closed, creating a suction as water rushes into the buccal cavity. They again squeeze the water out before swallowing.

That's what I have pictured. Just hard to draw a mouth in the act of opening with MSPaint.

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Actually, I can draw like that, much better in fact. But those are MSPaint ... and it's just a matter of laying with the program. I have a lot of time spent in hotels playing with programs.

If you're being facetious ... tongue.png

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FlaFly's original point sounds like a good reason to use tubes for longer flies. If using and extreme long shank hook gives the fish leverage to unhook itself, and you want a small hook then a tube would be the way to go. It will ride up the line away from the hook while playing the fish.

Cheers,

C.

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Actually guys, my original thought (vote no on using long tails) was not based on any experience with particular fish.... it just seemed logical that the more "non-hook" part of the fly trailing behind, the more likely to get a strike on the tail that doesn't result in hooking the fish. That's the way trout flies and bluegill flies seem to be made. I've never used a streamer before, and of course being a bluegill fisherman, I've never caught one of those big pikes or striped bass. Heck, I've never even seen one.

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