Hackle... Who grows the best of the best

[Piker20 0]

Agree whitings takes some beating but for cost/quality our very own Ebrands takes some beating.

[cheech 0]

 

I'm very interested in seeing the "pure data" which will be included in the upcoming evaluation----

It's getting all nerdy up in here. The idea is that if a company is consistent in their grading, we should be able to come to fairly close conclusions. Has anyone ever attempted to calculate cost per usable barb

[Ed Gallop 0]

Who Grows the Best of the Best? This may not be the answer you want but... Coq de Leon breeders from the mountains of Spain. I.bought a Metz years ago and was dissatisfied. Metz got some bad reviews back then. I had one years before that I liked. It's like a box of chocolates... I have an old Conranch, and a Collins that still has a few feathers. They are also nice. I have some nice older Herbert hen necks that are nice wet hackle. I believe Whiting bought out Herbert. All are nice, but as for the best? I have been very fortunate to obtain a source of Coq de Leon from a breeder in Spain. It is the Indio CdL feathers (not Pardo CdL) that make the absolute best dry fly hackle I've ever experienced, if tied a specific way. Problem is... Indio isn't available to the public (maybe some day). Whiting did start breeding Pardo Coq de Leon. It may not be quite as good as the Spanish grown but it is excellent (AK Best sent me some to compare). I know a guy who had connections (I think family) in north-western Spain. He went there and smuggled fertile eggs back to Whiting. He became very angry when Whiting didn't honor an agreement to cut him in. They cut him out. But they did pay his travel expenses. This info is from him so I don't know for sure. I do know he was super pi$$ed. Maybe, if I use my north-eastern Spanish connection, I could bring back some Indio eggs for Whiting. Just kidding. But it is an excellent and unusual feather that, if tied correctly, looks so natural on the water that you have to keep your eye on it during a hatch (no joke). My Spanish friend, Paco, gave me the needed information and I wrote an article about it for FAOL and also Fly Tyer magazine (got a hat for it). Google "Coq de Leon Paco Ugly Fly" (should be on top). I can't get this to post the link.

[cheech 0]

Who Grows the Best of the Best? This may not be the answer you want but... Coq de Leon breeders from the mountains of Spain. I.bought a Metz years ago and was dissatisfied. Metz got some bad reviews back then. I had one years before that I liked. It's like a box of chocolates... I have an old Conranch, and a Collins that still has a few feathers. They are also nice. I have some nice older Herbert hen necks that are nice wet hackle. I believe Whiting bought out Herbert. All are nice, but as for the best? I have been very fortunate to obtain a source of Coq de Leon from a breeder in Spain. It is the Indio CdL feathers (not Pardo CdL) that make the absolute best dry fly hackle I've ever experienced, if tied a specific way. Problem is... Indio isn't available to the public (maybe some day). Whiting did start breeding Pardo Coq de Leon. It may not be quite as good as the Spanish grown but it is excellent (AK Best sent me some to compare). I know a guy who had connections (I think family) in north-western Spain. He went there and smuggled fertile eggs back to Whiting. He became very angry when Whiting didn't honor an agreement to cut him in. They cut him out. But they did pay his travel expenses. This info is from him so I don't know for sure. I do know he was super pi$$ed. Maybe, if I use my north-eastern Spanish connection, I could bring back some Indio eggs for Whiting. Just kidding. But it is an excellent and unusual feather that, if tied correctly, looks so natural on the water that you have to keep your eye on it during a hatch (no joke). My Spanish friend, Paco, gave me the needed information and I wrote an article about it for FAOL and also Fly Tyer magazine (got a hat for it). Google "Coq de Leon Paco Ugly Fly" (should be on top). I can't get this to post the link.

Curtis and I got some of Paco Soria's stuff too. It's really cool stuff, but I hate how you have to trim it to make it the proper size.

[Ed Gallop 0]

Cheech... It is the trimming that helps keep the stiff fibers floating so well. As you know, the Ugly Fly doesn't look traditional or attractive in the vise. However, on the water they look more realistic than any fly I've ever seen. I have a fly box dedicated to Uglies and use them when a hatch is present. The feathers are too rare and expensive to use all the time, but I do at sometimes. It is the most productive fly I've used during a hatch, when the fish are selectively feeding but not much better than a traditional fly when fish are randomly feeding. I have several Sulphurs, Hendrickson, Olives, March Brown, etc., just for the special occasions. Paco is a very good friend and an excellent tier/angler that I highly respect. He no longer breeds chickens (too busy treating farm animals) but I'm sure a tier could find someone in Spain that sells Indio. If anyone is interested I'll ask Paco to check for you. He knows a lot of Spanish breeders.

[JSzymczyk 0]

 

 

I'm very interested in seeing the "pure data" which will be included in the upcoming evaluation----

It's getting all nerdy up in here. The idea is that if a company is consistent in their grading, we should be able to come to fairly close conclusions. Has anyone ever attempted to calculate cost per usable barb

 

I don't know how it will be possible to make any hard-data conclusions... even at a cost-per-usable-barb basis. What is "usable"? No two tiers will agree, or care, how many individual barbs are needed, let alone wanted, per fly, which type any individual is tying, what sizes, on and on and on. I've even heard more than one person say that today's selectively bred hackle has TOO MUCH barb density!!! The market would say otherwise, but their preferences are different. Who knows?

 

It's sort of like trying to determine which paintings are "the best" based on a cost-per-brush-stroke basis... no two people can agree on whether a painting is worth a damn or not!! Some people see majestic artwork where I see something which would have been better done by a pre-schooler. Some tyers would say the absolute best hackle neck has a thousand feathers all size 18 and smaller... I would say I have no use for it at all and wouldn't pay a dollar for it.

 

I'm just interested in how the data is going to be gathered and WHAT data will be used to make conclusions. I have absolutely no real-world bias on it, it's just curiosity.

[cheech 0]

 

 

 

I'm very interested in seeing the "pure data" which will be included in the upcoming evaluation----

It's getting all nerdy up in here. The idea is that if a company is consistent in their grading, we should be able to come to fairly close conclusions. Has anyone ever attempted to calculate cost per usable barb

 

I don't know how it will be possible to make any hard-data conclusions... even at a cost-per-usable-barb basis. What is "usable"? No two tiers will agree, or care, how many individual barbs are needed, let alone wanted, per fly, which type any individual is tying, what sizes, on and on and on. I've even heard more than one person say that today's selectively bred hackle has TOO MUCH barb density!!! The market would say otherwise, but their preferences are different. Who knows?

 

It's sort of like trying to determine which paintings are "the best" based on a cost-per-brush-stroke basis... no two people can agree on whether a painting is worth a damn or not!! Some people see majestic artwork where I see something which would have been better done by a pre-schooler. Some tyers would say the absolute best hackle neck has a thousand feathers all size 18 and smaller... I would say I have no use for it at all and wouldn't pay a dollar for it.

 

I'm just interested in how the data is going to be gathered and WHAT data will be used to make conclusions. I have absolutely no real-world bias on it, it's just curiosity.

 

I agree with you on all points. I think this is a curiosity thing for us too and it will all be explained. It has been a most interesting experiment thus far.

[Jaydub 0]

I think a couple of things could be objectively measured. Barb density and the length of the stem where the barbs remain within one hook size. I suppose, if you had the right instruments, you could measure barb stiffness. Who knows what would be considered optimal for those measurements? Other things that make good hackle like how well the stems wrap and color are more subjective.

[SkinnyPole 0]

Foghorn Leghorn

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8TQZBHszI4

 

Skinny

[Al Beatty 0]

Hi group,

 

We've used Whiting Hackle since it first hit-the-market and think it is the best. In the early 2000's Al was Whiting's marketing director and an inside look at Whiting production only solidified our belief that Whiting Products are the best. Today many years later (as happy customers) we still maintain that belief. We think the best Whiting Value is their saddle hackle AND the Hebert/Miner product line. Take care & ...

[BobHRAH 0]

Crackaig:

 

Could you please expand on "some of the practices of the American breeders are illegal here." What practices? Is it the breeding, the raising and penning, the collection, or what? Which breeders? And specifically, where is "here".

 

Considering that the birds are not for human consumption, I'm very curious as to what could be illegal in your country.

 

Thanks, Bob H

[SkinnyPole 0]

Crackaig:

 

Could you please expand on "some of the practices of the American breeders are illegal here." What practices? Is it the breeding, the raising and penning, the collection, or what? Which breeders? And specifically, where is "here".

 

Considering that the birds are not for human consumption, I'm very curious as to what could be illegal in your country.

 

Thanks, Bob H

 

Check the PETA Websight.

 

skinny

[JSzymczyk 0]

 

 

Check the PETA Websight.

 

skinny

 

 

Really? ..... Really??

[Stevester 0]

There have been articles published over the years in the various fly fishing/tying magazines that looked at feather count, size distribution, stem flexibility, barb density, etc. of necks. It has been a few years since I noticed one but I don't get as many magazines as I used to so I could have easily missed a recent publication. You could probably find out if there has been a recent comparison published somewhere.

 

Steve

[BobHRAH 0]

I don't think People Eating Tasty Animals will have the answers.

 

Thanks, Bob H