Thorax Duns: are they really better on slower water?

[Randyflycaster 0]

This is partly a fly fishing question, but is Vincent Marinaro right: Are thorax duns a better choice for fishing slower waters?

 

When would you choose them over sparkle/comparaduns?

 

I ask this because, now that I think about it, I never came across an angler who used thorax duns.

 

Randy

[SilverCreek 0]

I have found that what works best over picky trout is the realistic pattern that is not often used in those waters. Whatever the patterns, it seems that when it is fished by most of the anglers, the fish learn to avoid it. So for me the "best" realistic pattern is the one the fish have not seen before.

 

What I have found is that the Swisher and Richards no hackle is less often fished than any of the realistic dun patterns because it so hard to tie correctly (any asymmetry in the wings make the fly spin on the cast). It works for me when other flies do not.

[Jaydub 0]

Marinaro did a lot of research in developing his Thorax Dun. I have no reason to doubt his conclusions. However I have not used his design with cross wrapped hackle. I have used the more common simplified version, with hackle palmered through the thorax and clipped on the bottom, a lot. They have worked for me when traditional hackled flies and parachutes did not. I rarely use compara/sparkle duns, so I can't comment on the comparative effectiveness.

[whatfly 0]

Not unusual for a tier to make a bold claim about his pattern. And a bit of hyperbole is useful when selling books. The Thorax Dun is a good pattern, but hardly magical.

 

Ultimately if there was one uber fly, we'd all be using it, and fly fishing would be really boring...

[Slate_Drake_9 0]

presentation, Presentation, PRESENTATION! Then pattern.

[Byron 0]

Slate,

Presentation is terribly important. However, One's presentation abilities are what they currently are. With a given level of presentation ability, fly pattern selection becomes the factor which can quickly be changed.

[SilverCreek 0]

+++ to Byron's post.

 

Certainly a poor presentation will put down the fish, but the question was NOT about presentation. It was about fly choice. So although presentation could be an appropriate answer to another thread, it is not the answer to this one.

 

I acknowledge that presentation is very, very important; however, even the best fly fishers will carry more than one dry fly pattern for a hatch. That means that a fly choice has to be made. Within that context what would that choice be?

 

Vince Marinaro introduced his thorax dun in his book, A Modern Dry Fly Code. I have a copy. He describes tying the fly beginning on pg 250. A photo of pg 252 below shows the hackle fore and aft of the upright wing. Most importantly, the hackle is NOT cut off below the wing as you can see on his illustration to the left of the tying instruction. So the fly body of a thorax dun is elevated ABOVE that film.

 

 

Search google images for thorax dun

 

Why do a number of the thorax duns images on Google images have the hackle trimmed flat on the bottom? I suggest that it is because more "modern" fly fishers are aware of Swisher and Richards underwater photos of duns and know that the bodies are not elevated but lie on the film. The wings are not obscured by hackle but are clearly seen in the window especially in the "slower waters" that RandyFlycaster asked about. Compare a thorax dun and a S&W no hackle side by side to a mayflies on the water and the more realistic pattern is obvious, at least it is to me.

 

 

 

 

Thorax Dun:

 

 

No hackle:

 

[Byron 0]

+++ to Byron's post.

 

Certainly a poor presentation will put down the fish, but the question was NOT about presentation. It was about fly choice. So although presentation could be an appropriate answer to another thread, it is not the answer to this one.

 

I acknowledge that presentation is very, very important; however, even the best fly fishers will carry more than one dry fly pattern for a hatch. That means that a fly choice has to be made. Within that context what would that choice be?

Silver,

That is exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks

Or, assume perfect presentation.......then the fly pattern becomes the deciding element.

[SilverCreek 0]

This is partly a fly fishing question, but is Vincent Marinaro right: Are thorax duns a better choice for fishing slower waters?

 

When would you choose them over sparkle/comparaduns?

 

I ask this because, now that I think about it, I never came across an angler who used thorax duns.

 

Randy

 

When a question like the one above comes up, there are presuppositions/assumptions that unstated, but must be assumed if the question is to be a valid one. That assumption is "All other things being equal". If all other conditions are not equal, the question cannot be answered. The question self destructs and is a nonsense question without these preconditions.

 

Byron and I noted that the presentation must be equal, but really the assumptions go deeper than that. For example, what if the one leader was mono and the other was fluorocarbon? What if one of the patterns was poorly tied and the other was perfect? What if one of the patterns has one type of dubbing and the other was different? What if the two patterns were of different colors? What if a different floatants were used on the two flies?

 

Deductive reasoning tells us that it is not only the presentation that must be identical if the question is to be a valid one. Even the two flies must be tied with as identical materials as is possible within the confines of the two pattern designs; and they must be fished using not only identical presentations but leaders and floatants.

 

Without these unstated preconditions, the question cannot be valid or have a valid answer.

 

What is unsaid is just as important as what is said, when questions such as these are asked.

[Byron 0]

Silver,

Great post.

 

One question....the "thorax dun" picture you posted does not seem to have the "X" hackle wraps of Vince's Thorax Dun??

 

Thanks,

Byron

[Jaydub 0]

I would guess that 99.9 percent of "Thorax" style flies tied today are not tied per Marinaro's instructions. In know I've never tied one or seen one for sale. Someone came up with the simplified version without the "X" wraps. It's really a different pattern with the same name. The hackle is clipped on the bottom to simply make it ride lower in the water.

 

Finding out what works doesn't have to be a peer reviewed scientific experiment. Take several styles with you and if one is rejected try another with the same presentation. I think you'll find that sometimes one pattern works better than another. Why over-complicate it?

[Byron 0]

Jay,

Would not such flies better be called "traditional" or "Catskill Style" hackled flies rather than Marinaro's coined term "Thorax" duns?

[Crackaig 0]

Just to continue Silver's excellent reasoning, the question has to be asked, Better than what?

 

I am certain that the original thorax dun was a useful addition to what was available at the time. Is it better than other patterns that have been developed since? That is a really hard call.

 

For me the modern version of the thorax dun is an essential part of my fly box. It is an option I would not like to be without. I don't think I can say more than that.

 

Cheers,

C.

[SilverCreek 0]

Silver,

Great post.

 

One question....the "thorax dun" picture you posted does not seem to have the "X" hackle wraps of Vince's Thorax Dun??

 

Thanks,

Byron

 

You are correct. I just picked a good looking pattern from google images. I still think an S&W hackle would out fish the traditional thorax tie and I think a thorax tie with the bottom hackles cut flush would out fish the fully hackled version.

 

It think the excellent "accidental" Borger yarn wing dun you posed on FAOL would have a good chance of out fishing the traditional thorax tie. You images are below to give you proper credit.

 

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?53460-Accidental-Dun....Yarn-Wing-Dun-revisited

 

 

[Jaydub 0]

Jay,

Would not such flies better be called "traditional" or "Catskill Style" hackled flies rather than Marinaro's coined term "Thorax" duns?

 

No, beacuse the fly I'm thinking of has the hackle palmered over dubbing and covering maybe half of the shank.

 

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