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Freddo

Casting Class Tomorrow Morning; Need Fly Suggestions (please)!

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Wanting to try a dry fly, I tied a couple of "elk" hair caddis flies and while they were not the best floaters (maybe bad hair; I tried SilverCreek - but not many to chose from and for $2 i figured "practice") it was exciting to have the blue gills tear them up off the surface. Now I think setting the hook on a fly taken off the surface differs slightly from a wet or nymph? Those fish were inhaling them. I must say that for a beginner, it's a blessing living by a lake having a lot of hungry gills that are being happy candidates to teaching me to catch fish on a fly rod. What fun!

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Setting the hook on the dry fly is definitely different then when nymphing... someone told me that when you see the trout explode on the fly, to say "God save the queen" in your head before setting the hook.... This can be much easier said than done, especially for a beginner or for the first few risers in the season...but it's fun none the less. Post pics of your flies

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Setting the hook on the dry fly is definitely different then when nymphing... someone told me that when you see the trout explode on the fly, to say "God save the queen" in your head before setting the hook.... This can be much easier said than done, especially for a beginner or for the first few risers in the season...but it's fun none the less. Post pics of your flies

Ha thursthouse...that's so great you mentioned that because I noticed through trial *AND ERROR* that I needed to delay - so you have a valid point for sure. I pulled the fly out of many mouths before I gave the fish a moment and was setting hooks. All part of the learning curve.

 

Regarding the fly photos. I need to get a setup to take good images, I will for sure but I'm not setup yet. I wish I hadn't sold my Nikkor macro lens a while back. That would come in handy now!

 

Question for all: I've seen an elk hair pattern that has the hackle wrapped only behind the hook eye and after the elk hair is added to the hook. Is this a variation or does this pattern have a different name?

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I'm not grasping your description of this elk hair caddis you mention seeing. But all the EHC I tie the hair is tied in behind the hook eye. Some have no hackle at all, some palmered hackle and some have a collar of hackle.As to floating they should float pretty well till you catch a fish. Once you catch a fish rinse them out well in the water and give several harsh false casts to wring out the fly. If it still won't float put that fly on your sheep skin patch on your vest and tie on a dry one.

 

As to setting the hook, blue gill will be different from trout. The bluegill mouth is smaller for one thing which makes size of the fly matter to some degree.. But too, trout have a couple of different means of grabbing the fly. Some slash at the fly requiring a quick hook set. Others head and tail on the fly require a pause. I caught a 15" rainbow last night just under the surface in a midge hatch ( strongest midge hatch this season so far and the fish were on them !!). I thought I delayed too long to set the hook but no, when I set the hook the weight of the fish was there, he instantly exploded on the surface after the hook set shaking his head. Sometimes there is a fine line between them spitting the hook realizing it's not really food LOL, and hooking the fish without pulling away from them. Small Salmon but old enough to spawn in the fall on dries are probably the trickiest to hook regarding timing. Generally speaking in most cases with most fish on average, let them take the fly under the water surface, set the hook. Once the fish turns be that down or away he is yours on a hook set, sooner than that is generally too soon. Also with barbless hooks or pinched barbs the hook set can be gentle but firm, the hook will hook itself with that tension. With midges it's just a flip of the rod tip that hooks them and always in the lip. Bue Gill and trout are not like bass. Bass you can crank on the hook set and they still might go airborne and spit your hook as if to say, "here's your fake meal idiot " !!

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Hi DaveG - I think It would be clear if I said the caddis was tied with a hackle collar (the hackle was not palmered and was just at the front of the hook, just behind the eye (like a typical and standard dry fly [if there is such a thing]). Thanks for the tips on hook setting. I know over time this will become a reaction and not take much thought. I need to get to trout fishing soon too...

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In my now considered ancient Orvis Fly Tying book a collared elk hair caddis would be called a Fluttering Caddis. Who knows today, they have new names for things these days. It can be an effective pattern, especially when as the name implies, the real caddis are active on the water or over the water and touching down on the water etc. In the case of Blue Gill, not sure what the indication is. I think if it's buggy a Blue Gill will take it, they are excitable and willing biters ! I mean they will come up and try to take bass poppers even though no way they can fit it in their mouths.

 

Another dry to try tying, since you have elk hair, would be the Humpy. You pick the color, I would do yellow or green Humpies for blue Gill.

 

Also, when tying dries with elk hair you might do two things. Make sure the under fur is brushed out and stack the hair for evenness. This will aid in longer floats and a better alignment of hair. On those fluttering caddis you could grease up the hackle or apply what ever fly floatant you might have bought or want to buy.

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In my now considered ancient Orvis Fly Tying book a collared elk hair caddis would be called a Fluttering Caddis. Who knows today, they have new names for things these days. It can be an effective pattern, especially when as the name implies, the real caddis are active on the water or over the water and touching down on the water etc. In the case of Blue Gill, not sure what the indication is. I think if it's buggy a Blue Gill will take it, they are excitable and willing biters ! I mean they will come up and try to take bass poppers even though no way they can fit it in their mouths.

 

Another dry to try tying, since you have elk hair, would be the Humpy. You pick the color, I would do yellow or green Humpies for blue Gill.

 

Also, when tying dries with elk hair you might do two things. Make sure the under fur is brushed out and stack the hair for evenness. This will aid in longer floats and a better alignment of hair. On those fluttering caddis you could grease up the hackle or apply what ever fly floatant you might have bought or want to buy.

You nailed that one Dave! The fly *is* a "Fluttering Caddis" for sure - and thanks!! This just keeps getting better now learning the names of the flies and varieties. I recall back in January of this year when I was first getting my appetite whet for fly fishing, thinking there was no way I'd know how to wade through all the endless fly patterns out there. Just start slow....

 

I like the Humpy idea and will tie and try those too. What are some good patterns for deer hair besides the Muddler? BTW - I mention the blue gills often because the lake here has plenty of them. I'm targeting them now to get practice casting and setting hooks. I'm sure some will get fried too one day. I really have a hankering for catching trout though so I need to get out on some rivers that have them. Our lake has stocked trout and I've tried the peacock bodied wooly bugger but only the BGs are taking them.

 

Well now I need to get some more tying in. I see some of the Humpy flies use foam, I'm sure they'll float well.

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In my now considered ancient Orvis Fly Tying book a collared elk hair caddis would be called a Fluttering Caddis. Who knows today, they have new names for things these days. It can be an effective pattern, especially when as the name implies, the real caddis are active on the water or over the water and touching down on the water etc. In the case of Blue Gill, not sure what the indication is. I think if it's buggy a Blue Gill will take it, they are excitable and willing biters ! I mean they will come up and try to take bass poppers even though no way they can fit it in their mouths.

 

Another dry to try tying, since you have elk hair, would be the Humpy. You pick the color, I would do yellow or green Humpies for blue Gill.

 

Also, when tying dries with elk hair you might do two things. Make sure the under fur is brushed out and stack the hair for evenness. This will aid in longer floats and a better alignment of hair. On those fluttering caddis you could grease up the hackle or apply what ever fly floatant you might have bought or want to buy.

 

 

I like the Humpy idea and will tie and try those too. What are some good patterns for deer hair besides the Muddler? BTW -

 

Well now I need to get some more tying in. I see some of the Humpy flies use foam, I'm sure they'll float well.

 

i've never tied with foam but I'm sure I'll get around to that some day, well not so sure really. I'm a traditional old tier I guess. My humpy's were never tied in foam. I stopped tying them simply because I have enough patterns that work for me in situations where I might use a Humpy. Some folks really like these for dry fly fishing where there are land locked salmon.

 

The muddler is tied with deer hair FWIW.

 

To catch trout in a pond you need to learn their habits and locations. And to not catch blue gill in a pond you need to know their location and habits and then move away from them, perhaps to where the trout are. Hint; Time of day can be a factor. Location; you may find trout on the edge of drops and BG away from the drop and in shallower water. bigger fish will leave the cold depths to criuse the edges of the shelf near the drop to scoff bait food. If you have huge pickerel or bass they will take BG. Brown trout will eat small fry. just about all fish come into the shallows to spawn, so certain times of year, certain times o day you may get cross species. In the evening you get cross species in the shallows as fish feed. I mentioned before, when fly fishing "think like a fish".

 

Yesterday I mentioned the rainbow I caught. I caught that in a spot I know holds trout. It's rock bottom, since I was in waders not in my boat or canoe, it's inshore from a 35 ft drop and I caught the fish in about 4 ft of water. I had trout rising all around me and out in the main body of pond. But I had to wait for the midge hatch to turn on. I had 0 rising fish near me at 6 pm. But saw a few midges and saw some fish rises further out. By 7 the air was humming with midges and rise rings started forming nearer shore, the game was on . The fish went nuts all around me for about 40 minutes then it was over. I missed two fish on a Griffiths gnat, Caught the one on a small soft hackle. Not a good record for me but a worthy fish to catch. If I tied on a Midge emerger that might have been different. Oh well, first good hatch of the year though, it was great just being there ! I walked the half mile of shore back to my car in a cool evening breeze as it began to get a bit darker out. By the time I got home I had the headlights on in my car. That particular spot is trout haven, not many will take the walk to get to it though, so I mostly fish alone there. You need waders or a boat to get there. It's private property with a steep banking along the shore so walking dry land is out, You have about a 3 ft wide strip of legal rock and sand with blown down trees you have to traverse around out in the water. Anyway, the point is , the trout aren't just anyplace on the pond waiting for Dave or Freddo to show up LOL,

 

You Freddo, have to learn the waters in your own area if you want to catch trout..

 

Edit: The Goddar Caddis you can use deer or elk on. Same with several varieties, aka spin off patterns there of, of a fly known as The Stimulator. But to be honest I don't tie a lot of flies for BG fishing because they will take about anything on my vest or in my fly cases anyway.. Tie on a size 12-16 something or other, the BG will probably take it.

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Hi Dave and as always - thanks!

 

I will learn the waters here. I've fished the lake a lot but just one or two spots and without a boat, I'm limited. When the trout were biting, they hit for a while and then stop for a period of time. This all took place in a specific area leading me to believe they might be cruising in a school possible or a small group and each time they came through, yee haa. So I'll keep plugging along and learn all there is, slowly but surely. I "do" need to get to some rivers soon. Casting my 9' 5WT has me a little concerned with all the trees/brush and other obstacles that hamper a newb fly caster though but I'll never learn without getting down to it. How true is that?!?

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My stream rod is a 7' 3/4 wt., fwiw. Right now it's loaded with a Cortland 444 wt forward line. It likes Cortland SL too ( well it used to, not sure Cortland produces that line any more), the 444 loads it heavier than the SL does so it's shorter range... I'm on the verge of building a new 9ft 4 wt. that I would use on lakes or rivers in calm weather. I like the tip flex on a 4 wt. or even 3 wt rod for holding fish with size 20 and smaller hooks for my midge fishing I do here.. The 9 footer should offer a bit more distance over the 7 ft rod I own that as said , I use for streams presently.

 

Just some suggestions. 1 learn to cast out of position, like sideways in front of you. 2 To reverse cast, so in other words the forward stroke becomes your back stroke and you guessed it I need not finish the statement ? 3 And learn to roll cast. The 9 footer can be used in tighter places using one or all of those strokes. The roll cast can be good for nymphing and wet fly fishing. 4 I never mastered the tower cast but some people like that one too. I don't know about your rig, I assume spare spools can be bought for your reel ? I say that because roll casting goes better with line weights a bit lighter than your rod rating and some rods roll double tapered line best. Lake fishing it's always good to have a sinking line to revert to etc. Just change out a spool, good to go with the one rod for a good majority of "your" fishing !

 

I only know of one sink tip line that casts nearly as well as a floating line and also roll casts decently, unfortunately it doesn't hold up long term. Lucky if you get two seasons out of one, real lucky. But it's the scientific Angler Mastery series line . Sink tip can be useful in rivers where full sink line might get hung up on rocks. A sink tip is worth having. I have a Cortland 333 sink tip that casts well on exactly one rod of my 3 six wt rods I own. So I keep it, bet I've had that line for over 15 years now. Don't use it a lot but when I need it I have it. I'd have bought several Mastery lines in that same time period. Again FWIW. In 7 wt and it will cast on my 8 wt T&T too, I have a Cortland 444 sink tip. It's ok , no great shakes over the 333 and costs more.

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I just ordered on monday from guideline a new 4 cast sink tip line for #5 sink 3! Should have it next week! I'm a dryfly junkie, but gonna use it if no one is looking!:-)

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Hmm, I've read about the 4Cast line, never tried one. Let us know here how that works for you please ?

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I may try to get out tomorrow evening to try getting a nymph to some trout. It may be more of a lesson in casting but that's fine because I need to learn to cast on the rivers too. On the lake I can get a fly out nice and far and caught my first largemouth bass on a my fly rod (quite exciting). It was about 10+ inches, not huge, but took a wet fly I tied (peacock and Brahma hen (brown); simple to tie. I've been trying to roll case and need to watcha video or ten because, and maybe it's the WF line, the leader doesn't always flip the fly out. It a roll cast primarily for dry flies and not wet/nymphs??

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Freddo! I was shore you would catch some fish this year, but your already more up then me!:-) The roll cast is for wets & dries! On double handed, switch & single handed rods, but there are a lot of different types of roll casts! Welcome to where it gets even more confuzzing!:-) Watch youtube forshore, flylines will be your wifes pet hate i imagine! Give it a few years & you will have what might look like a small shop in your cupboard!:-) If you get friendly with someone? Ask to try there set up & let them try yours! Even put there reel & line on your rod for a bit if it's ok with them! Lines are so confuzzing & they are all different on different rods & lenghts! Then starts the leader lenght nitemare for different flies for different lines for rods! Hope you are not getting a headache yet!:-) Rio make fantastic lines & i've been a fan for a longtime, but guideline is my 2nd favourite & i would not want to live without there doublehand scandi shooting head! Dave G! I got my guideline 4 cast 5# sink tip sink3 line 2day, 69euros, i payed 55euros, misses dosent know yet, but it blends in with all the other flyline boxes in my cupboard, gonna put it on a reel 2moro & thursday is a holiday here, so i'm going fishing! Gonna use it mostly on a 9' 5#, but will take a arsonall with me & test it on a 11' #5, 11' #4 & 8' #4! I'll start a knew thread to let people know about the line! Gonna use woolybugers! Maybe something else!?!

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Adam, $55 is a really good price for that line. Here it runs upward of $70, even mid $70 range. Good luck with it and have a great day Thurs ! Look forward to seeing your thread.

 

Freddo, roll casting is a topic all it's own and let me say that there are people who are extremely good at it, who can really put the line out like most of us can cast normally but in the air.. Some WF lines roll cast fairly well actually and some don't. Some have a long taper on them, and some almost are a shooting head style line, they behave very differently when roll casting. I try to avoid DT lines but those will roll pretty naturally. I think for small stream action a DT line is ideal though. All three lines mentioned behave very differently in general, having different end result ideas built in. And, Some rods roll cast naturally. Some rods do better with a lighter line than the rating of the rod, since roll casting is a wet line situation, that added drag and weight can overload a rod and lose efficiency.. Using a lighter line can help overcome that. Some lines are built to ride high, float high and shed water well. In my experience longer rods with a mid action or some mid section flex do better than rods loaded with tip action and little give in the mid section, for how I roll cast. And that depends on line loading as well. I don't roll cast dry flies personally, mostly nymphs, wets, non weighted Woolie Buggers ( unusual fly for me, part of my bugger recipe is inherently weighted) and muddlers.. Now and then on any given day I will roll cast even if the situation doesn't call for it just to keep in practice. My new Revelation 9' 5wt I built recently roll casts quite well actually. I think most of us common folk do less well roll casting when reaching for the extra mile of line to get out on the water or with too long a leader, FWIW. It seems acceptable to compromise those extremes just to fish a section otherwise unfishable on foot.

 

Soft Hackles are just very fishable flies and naturally look like something a fish should eat. Simple to tie, effective wet fly action, I use imported Partridge, natural ( and local incidentally) Grouse, and Natural Hen from Wapsi. The Wapsi natural hen is good and consistant over the skin, I think it cost me in the range of $6.

 

Freddo, heads up, if there are 10" bass in that pond, there are big boys around at the right time of day or in the right circumstances. If you like bass, maybe target them. A 3-5 lb bass on that five weight ought to put a sparkle in your eyes LOL ! I'm not a huge LM Bass fan personally but they do weight a rod down and the strike can be spectacular with top water bugs.. That's most of the thrill for me, the strike, then you drag in the sack of potatoes. Per pound regarding the fight, the sunfish have more fight in them. And personally it takes a lot of fishing to top catching just one nice sized salmon !!

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