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Freddo

Casting Class Tomorrow Morning; Need Fly Suggestions (please)!

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Freddo! A wetfly you should never forget about is the march brown! It works & will teach you many skills especially tying in wings on a wetfly! Also you should keep a ear out if your local flyshop is having a testday? My local shop had a testday with Vision a few years ago in a small boat harbour, just turn up & test different rods & lines! All had just a piece of wool at the end but fun! It turned into a pissing compatition though when people knew eachother from the same fishery, who can hit that boat over there? Bla bla bla!:-) The guy in the other shop also has been having a snowbee testday for a couple of years, but using flies on the end in a close buy fishery! Have to find out when this year? Also when you get to a river, watch what other people do, you'll learn what to do & what not to do!:-) There is a guy i know how is probably the bet fly fisherman i know & when the seatrout are coming up the rapids he uses a short czech nymping cast cos' it's so productive! Heard some peaple say once that he dosen't know how to cast, thats why he dose that czech thing! Totally not true! I've seen him do a snake roll cast on a switch rod with a 20+ foot leader with a 18# dryfly on the end & his presentation would not even scare the spookiest of trout! It was him that put me on to float tubing for pike & i will be fore ever gratful! Dave G! Started raining lastnight & has been raining all day, so the water will be big tommorrow, the 4 cast will be the perfect line & can leave the float rio dart at home! Hardly ever fish wet or weighted flies on a single hand rod, but i did find some kola killers i tied over a year ago, diddn't want to swim on a floatline, just stay in the surface or on top, but the sink 3 should get them under! Beautiful fly, kind of like a long slim black wooly bugger, but with a ring of flouro red wool just before the fox fur tail!

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Thanks guys:

 

@DaveG: I may target largemouths for fun but really want to start catching trout. And yes, the LM doesn't fight like the BG's but so far my BG experience has been great. They like your wooly bugger pattern quite well - that's a keeper for my fly box and have a few on hand always. I've ben tying them in a #14 2x long hook. I found a great tutorial on making the peacock herl nearly bulletproof and so far I lose the flies to issues of mine and not fish ruining them.

 

@Adam: For lines/rods, I need to stick with the one setup for now and get good with it. I'll need to learn what I can and can't do with this setup. I may however look int a new arbor/spool and get a different line (for my Orvis Clearwater II reel). Thanks for all the ideas.

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Freddo! One thing you should get into the habbit of doing is not hooking your fly to the fly ring on yourrod if it has one? Or to the reel! Much better tohook your fly to the highest line guide on your rod, but not the one at the tip & have your leader run down to & around the reel & back up to the tip! I hope you understand what i'm trying to say? If your leader is in the rod tip ring you will get a kink! I you look at a new reel oneday? It's something to look at, how the leader will wrap around it nicely!

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Thanks guys:

 

@DaveG: I may target largemouths for fun but really want to start catching trout. And yes, the LM doesn't fight like the BG's but so far my BG experience has been great. They like your wooly bugger pattern quite well - that's a keeper for my fly box and have a few on hand always. I've ben tying them in a #14 2x long hook. I found a great tutorial on making the peacock herl nearly bulletproof and so far I lose the flies to issues of mine and not fish ruining them.

 

 

Point of interest : The Largemouth should like that woolie bugger too, the dark ones they take in the spring or in low light !! Suggestion only, Tie some on #6 Nymph hooks for large mouth, big and bushy, full tail, full hackle, thick built up body. Fish that weighted and or on sinking line. Just a thought. Oh and did I tell you that bass like Chartuese.

 

Caught a small bass today myself actually but on a Hornberg.

 

Good luck with the trout fishing, Freddo !!

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Point of interest : The Largemouth should like that woolie bugger too, the dark ones they take in the spring or in low light !! Suggestion only, Tie some on #6 Nymph hooks for large mouth, big and bushy, full tail, full hackle, thick built up body. Fish that weighted and or on sinking line. Just a thought. Oh and did I tell you that bass like Chartuese.

 

 

 

 

Caught a small bass today myself actually but on a Hornberg.

 

Good luck with the trout fishing, Freddo !!

 

 

Thanks Dave - I'll tie some tonight. I was thinking a little bigger and in olive and black. I've got some size 6 hooks waiting to be dressed...I'll try those. I had some black but gave all my first try flies to my son to use. He's fishing them behind a float and catching BGs too. We might get rain tomorrow but if I get a window of clearing, I'm trying to get out there...just not sure if I'll hit the river or the lake. Oh the tough choices!

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UPDATE: I "did" tie three wolly buggers in olive last night (and bled a little after storking back the hackle and got stuck by the hook; I'm such a beginner! Hee hee!). Today at the lake I tied on a size 6, started casting (or trying to cast), and I thought I needed another casting lesson. WHY PLEASE? At first thought it was a cheaper Cortland leader (I initially learned using a RIO until it snapped a week or two ago and I wanted to try a locally available brand). It "seems" to me that the wooly bugger acts like a sail and catches so much air that I thought I'd forgot how to cast. I spent more time untangling than fishing. Ugh! But, on the casts that took my bugger out there - BAM - a 10" largemouth and a bigger BG (nice stuff). So the bigger olive buggers work quite nicely!

 

QUESTION: Are bigger buggers harder to cast or is there a special technique? BTW - To prove out the Cortland leader was or wasn't my issue, I switched to a prince nymph I tied last night (size 14) and it helped me realize I did not forget how to cast and led me to ask about the bugger casting. The nymph casting went WAY better than the bugger and the only difference was the fly. Also - the bugger I tied was weighted with lead wire (no bead head though) so I thought with the extra weight, I'd need to be more careful -- not the case.

 

Hope you guys are getting out there too this weekend! :)

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Freddo! Welcome to the leader=fly size nightmare! Normal rule of thumb, well maybe Scandinavian rule of thumb is a total leader lenght should be 1.5× the lenght of the rod, longer for small flies, shorter for bigger flies! Different size flies act different! Not shore about the wooly bugger, but if it was a dryfly you were having problems with? I'd say try a bigger rod #6 or make a smaller fly! A large dryfly suited best for a #6 will cast exellent ona #7 but total crap on a #4 or worse #3!

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Freddo,

To answer your question ... yes, larger flies are harder to cast.

To address the issue of leaders ... no, it's not necessary to change leaders to cast larger flies. This is coming from a person, me, who uses one piece of mono from fly line to fly. I use 6 pound test or 10 pound test for everything but the largest flies. I use 14 pound test for those, not because of the cast but to give me a little more ...umph ... when setting the larger hook.

 

Larger flies are much less forgiving of short stroking the back cast. If you cast a fraction of a second too soon, with loop still in the line, you'll end up with the fly in your back or lying in a puddle of line right in front of you. You must wait until the line, leader and fly have played out fully behind you, so your rod is fully loaded and all the energy of your forward cast is propelling everything forward.

Just wait a little bit longer on the back cast and you should see good forward casting.

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Bigger fly and weighted, Lengthen out your casting stroke a little bit and as mentioned already wait for the fly to catch up. Weighted flies you may even have to wait on the bump on your backcast. All new casting technique but not like starting over LOL !! Against what has been said, my experience is different, I would suggest to up the leader strength and go a bit shorter for big heavy wind grabbing/ sailing flies. If you fish 4x tippet for your 14's maybe 2x for these big buggers. Not manditory but it will absolutely help the cause. The big issue though is you need to change your timing in casting, Do a little longer push in the stroke for big heavy flies. Same action at the end but that slight delay to let the fly catch up, like Mike said.

 

However, too, there is a point where the fly is a bit too big and heavy for the rod you are using. I don't think a 6 hook is at that point on a strong casting 5 wt. though. But then I don't know how heavy and large you made these flies either LOL ! If you used large lead or weight , maybe so .

 

You're doing well Freddo, you will adjust to this too. Congrats on the fish !

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Hey Guys!


Thanks for all of your help with casting. I did some poking around on the Internet before reading your posts and found out exactly what you are saying in both slowing down the cast and some people mentioned the heavier/shorter leader setup.

Here's my setup when I had the trouble: 9' rod and 5WT. I have a 9' Cortland 333 Classic leader (5.2 lb.) on there now and to it I tied on a 5x tippet (about 5') making the total 14' from fly line to the bugger. The bugger itself was a size 6 and weighted with about 20 turns of .015" lead wire (no bead head); chenille body, small gold wire; saddle hackle; standard marabou tail. I have no problems casting a nymph with this setup but liked the RIO Powerflex Trout leader better (seems to have a heavier butt end).

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Just for the record, I don't think I've Ever put 20 turns of lead on Any fly I've tied. Maybe half of that, usually 8 turns or so.Covering hook shank center and Slightly forward of hook shank center, leave a gap to the eye. This makes a good flying fly, that tracks well in the air being slightly weight forward, and has a moderate sink rate. I would never use 5x leader for a large weighted bugger. I would never use a 14' long leader/tippet combo for fishing warm water species. Bass and bluegill are not line shy anyway, no need for that long a leader/tippet or that fine a tippet. You're making casting into a chore here with weighted flies on that combo, Freddo ! If your fly line doesn't have a loop on the end you can make one from the butt end of an old leader.. Then loop your new leaders and you have a rig you can easily change out by attaching and unattatching loop to loops., And using appropriate sizes for the fish you are targeting. You hook a 5 or 6 lb bass on that 5x tippet, he is gone with your fly. Don't kid yourself that they aren't in the waters you fish, those small bass came from someplace !

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Freddo! That tippet is too long for that fly, cut a couple of feet off, you could cut one foot off first, try it, then cut another foot off, even another foot or even half if you like the feel off it!

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Thanks Guys...

 

If 14' is too long, what would the best chemistry be? Would a leader being 9' total with a 4x tippet at the end (6.4 lb) be better (a stock RIO Powerflex Trout is just that) or even shorter and maybe 3x? It may be fun to rig a few of these leaders from mono myself that I can get easily and I know the perfection loop a just learned the blood knot so that's no problem at all. My fly line has a loop for the leader so it's ready to work for me. If I went this route, what's a good butt section line size/lb. test?

 

@ Dave: 20 turns is a lot - huh? Maybe so, I'll try less next time I tie some. Would all that extra weight hamper casting them or is it more because of the marabou and hackle dragging through the air? I'm trying to understand the physics behind the failure (to a point) to help me better understand the big picture. I know I'm casting the fly line (weight forward) and "totally get" that, it makes sense and I do well with the nymphs and wets as they shoot out there nicely. The big buggers though - not so much! Ha hee ha ha...I was just thinking of the frustration I faced yesterday morning trying to get that big bugger to the fish and it's just part of me learning (and part of the fun)! This is SO different from picking off trout with UL spinning gear to put it mildly.

 

BTW - I can't express my appreciation enough for all the support I'm getting here in FlyTyingForum! You are all AWESOME and I'm grateful. I learn well and fast getting my hands dirty but the experience shared here is priceless (the witty banter is fun too). :)

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Think of the fly as a counterweight to the fly line. The heavier the counterweight, the less action from the fly line.

 

 

Yes, you are throwing the fly line. If you start the forward motion too soon with a light fly, then the line has enough momentum and inertia to snap the "counterweight" along and bring if forward.

If you're "counterweight" is too heavy, instead of just whipping around and following the fly line, it tends to stop the fly line ... to reduce it's forward momentum and bring all of it crashing down around your head (pun intended).

 

When casting larger flies, you are throwing the weight of the fly too, so to speak. It you wait for the fly to reach a straight line behind you, then your forward momentum is applied to the line AND the fly, and both come forward as planned.

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