Kirk Dietrich 0 Report post Posted June 11, 2015 Art, with the sewing machine motor, it spins as fast as you want but what happens is long dubbing gets pulled down and twisted and needs to be teased out. Now that I spin it by hand, it is much more manageable. Check out my Youtube channel, link below, I think I have a tutorial using the twister. Norm, I find myself using a dubbing loop most of the time especially for small flies. I mostly just use the dubbing twister to make long hair brushes for tails and heads on large flies. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
126lineman 0 Report post Posted June 11, 2015 tire, You're still not getting the point. When did I ever say that you (Flytire) said anything about a dubbing brush machine? Reread my post. The stock photo you show of the Nor-Vise shows a dubbing brush table between the vise and the thread post. You're assuming that if someone uses a lathe type vise that they must also have that clunky table sitting there in order to make dubbing brushes. My point was that you don't need the table or the spinning machine (which was referenced in another post) if you have a lathe vise. That's two less things you need laying around. My lathe vise takes up no more space than your Renzetti. By the way, a kind fellow showed me 44 years ago what a dubbing loop was when he taught me how to tie flies. Don't think I'll have to Google it. For what it's worth, a thread dubbing loop is in no way equivalent in durability to a stainless steel or copper wire dubbing brush, apples to oranges. Maybe you need to do more 'Googling'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene L 0 Report post Posted June 11, 2015 I don't understand the spring-thing on a dubbing twister. A wire will break after a certain number of twists, regardless of how fast you turn it or if it has a spring or not. Mine does just fine and doesn't require a lathe vise or a dubbing table. It may not be perfect, but maybe it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikechell 0 Report post Posted June 11, 2015 Think linear distances. Two straight pieces of wire say, 10 inches long. As you twist them around each other and they coil up, the linear distance shortens. Without a spring, the pulling caused by the reduction of linear distance will cause the wire to break when it's pulled too far. With a spring loaded end allowing for the shortening distance, you'll get more twisting before it breaks. The spring allows for more twists per inch and a tighter coiling of the brush. Whether this is a benefit, I cannot say, because I don't make brushes. I am just answering the reason for the spring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BuzFly 0 Report post Posted June 11, 2015 I don't understand the spring-thing on a dubbing twister. A wire will break after a certain number of twists, regardless of how fast you turn it or if it has a spring or not. Mine does just fine and doesn't require a lathe vise or a dubbing table. It may not be perfect, but maybe it is. The purpose of the spring to so that the wire won't break. As you spin the wire the tension builds up and if the other end does not move the tension will break the wire before you are done winding it. Having one end move will let you get better wraps and you will break a lot less. I make a few hundred of them a year and having both ends fixed is just a bad design and one that will produce bad brushes. Also, when the brush is spinning, take a wood handled brass brush and comb the crap out the fibers pulling then away from the wire. This is the second most important step in make the brush. The video below is one I did a few yeas back that shows you how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2khRugK0jTQ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirk Dietrich 0 Report post Posted June 11, 2015 Mike and Buz, good explanation of the spring end. Buz, nice little video. A wire tooth dog brush works exceptionally well for preening/pulling fibers out when twisting long hair brushes but unlike the way you used the wire brush parallel with the core, I kind of poke and brush with the dog brush and pull up; of course I've never done a thin angel hair only brush - seemed to work fine for you in your video. For thicker materials, that dog brush really fluffs up the materials nicely. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 ok whatever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene L 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 My wire breaks when I twist it up and I can't see any advantage to it NOT breaking. It twists up just fine with natural dubbing material. I don't see any problems so far. I haven't tried long synthetic materials. I fully understand stainless steel has a higher breaking point that copper, but is there an advantage to that? I haven't seen it, but would like to hear opposing opinions. Again, my premise is a wire will break after a given number of twists for the wire regardless of how that twist is applied. Am I wrong in this assumption? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petelangevin 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 I have a nor-vise and i split my time between the dubbing loop and a dubbing brush. It depends on what i am dubbing. I love the brushes for bunny buggers, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikechell 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 Again, my premise is a wire will break after a given number of twists for the wire regardless of how that twist is applied. Am I wrong in this assumption? Example: the two twisted wires in the picture. If the silver wire is where it breaks on a fixed distance system, you'll get a dubbing brush that will probably work. It would be looser and possibly allow some fiber to come out. The copper wire is twisted noticeably tighter, and requires the ends move towards each other as its twisted. It will obviously hold the material MUCH tighter. Again, I cannot attest to the benefits, only that it will do this. When running wire harnesses, I can tell you that twisted wire is more flexible that straight wire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene L 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 My dubbing brushes look more like the copper wire. The silver wire doesn't look anywhere near breaking or being maxed out. It would make a bad dubbing brush. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikechell 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 I just posted extremes, so you can see the difference. As I've repeatedly stated, I don't know if there is a true benefit ... but I do know a spring will allow a tighter coiling before the wire breaks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BuzFly 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 I just posted extremes, so you can see the difference. As I've repeatedly stated, I don't know if there is a true benefit ... but I do know a spring will allow a tighter coiling before the wire breaks. Mike: You are 100% correct. The spring helps prevent the wire from snapping. A good dubbing brush machine design will have some kind of tension devise. Every turn you make decrease the overall length of the brush creating tension. If you look at my video and look at the right where the wire is connected to the spring, you will see that spring travel over 1/2". Another key component to a good brush is having tight wraps and a lot of them like in the picture you posted. It is a great example. The tighter the wraps, the more secure your material will be, less material pulls/fall off your brush when you brush them out when you are making them. I put a lot of pressure and force on the wire when I am brushing them out to get the trapped fibers out. This is very important when you are making brushed that have 3"-6" diameters. The last problem you have with a dubbing brush machine that only ROTATES from one end is that although you can get nice tight wraps they will not be uniformly distributed along the length of the brush. Your wraps per inch will increase as you move from one side of the brush to the other. A lot of what I am discussing is form making long 12" - 18" long brushes in a machine, larger diameters and varying thicknesses/coarsenesses of material. Ie. Angle Hair, SF Blend. Bucktail, Yack Hair, Krystal Flash. Brushed made on the vies with dubbing is another story because you can make an on vies brush with just about any material and wire/thread/mon and get the results you need. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hatchet Jack 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 StillJerkin - I've had very good luck with this 34 gauge, 0.008" diameter stainless steel wire. Found it in a craft store, less than $2 a spool: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hatchet Jack 0 Report post Posted June 12, 2015 Could not figure out how to add more than one photo to my previous post.... There's been good mention of wire spring-tensioning devices, motors, dog hair brushes, winding both ends of a brush, by Kirk & others. Forgive me for beating my own drum - I found that without a wire tensioning mechanism, my wire would break before the brush was fully formed. I made a machine with a tensioning device, and it also lets me spin both ends of the brush as it forms. I found that a motor, while nifty-neato, spins the forming brush far faster than I can comb out the fibres. I use a dog hair brush to tease out the fibres as I form the brush. Made from some VCR parts and loose layabouts: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites