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Dondi12

One size larger

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Purchased a new TFO Signature series #4 rod and placed a Ross reel on it. Prior to purchasing the line the salesman tried to talk me into getting one size larger line WF5F. He said I'll be able to cast farther with it and that he does this all the time. I declined and purchased Rio WF4F line. Does anyone here put one size larger line on a rod?

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Sure, one size larger, one size smaller, both have their purposes.

 

Usually, one size larger is used to load the rod better on short casts (less than 40').

 

One size smaller generally works better for long casts, 60' or greater.

 

Of course, every rod is different, and then there's the skill of the caster to consider....

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Some fast action/ tip flex rods cast better with a heavier weight line on them. The salesman may have known this rod and thought it would perform better with a heavier line on it.

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Not all rods, or lines for that matter, are the same despite having the same rating. Four weight isn't a precise weight. It is a range of weights. If your rod is rated at the top end of the 4wt range and you pair it with a line from the bottom of the 4 weight range, or visa versa, you could find it a difficult combination. A rod at the top end of the weight range may be better matched to a five weight at the bottom of the five weight range.

 

I have 3 four weight rods an a 5 weight. My cane 4 weight has the widest range of lines that it is comfy with. My Marriatt 8' 6" is a very light four weight, which was best suited to an old Orvis line that was defiantly at the light end of four. My 8' 6" Orvis though is much more powerful and performs well with a Bloke 4 wt line that is very heavy for a four. That same line makes my 9' 5wt sing, while it struggles with my Barrio 5wt GT90 line. In short it isn't just a case of matching numbers. All these lines are within the weight range for their stated weight.

 

To further complicate matters a rod rating is only a matter of opinion of the maker. In matters of opinion we can differ and both be right. I would say if the salesman wants to try to sell you a line heavier try it out before you buy. You might agree with him, you might not. But you will know.

 

Cheers,

C.

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Yes, but what the salesman said was misleading. There's no reason why an over-lined rod would cast farther, per se. In some situation it is useful (e.g. throwing heavy rigs into wind on light rods) but a phg points out, all else being equal, an under-lined rod can usually cast farther because the lighter line allows you to hold more line in the air.

What the salesman really meant, is that less proficient casters like to over-line their rods because it provides better feedback. The line load is more self-evident, and thus produces a better cast that will go further. You would be much better off spending money on casting lessons to gain distance, than buying a new line.

 

It is argued by some that some rods 'like' heavier lines (and some lines are over-lined out of the box these days), but personally I think this is more of a problem in the past than today.

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If you are casting larger, heavier flies, then he was correct. Larger, heavier line will carry larger, heavier flies farther.

If you're casting small flies, then the first response (from PHG) is what I've come to understand.

Heavier lines load the rod more, allowing for better short distance casting. Lighter lines need more line out before their properly loading the rod, allowing for better long casting ability.

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I have a 3wt and a 5wt rod and reel. Would you suggest trying those reels on this 4wt rod to see which size line works best?

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I'd use the 4 wt line on the rod and try casting and fishing with it. If you bought the new TFO Signature II fly rod, it is supposed to be a medium fast action, and medium fast action fly rods should cast fine with the rated fly line. Only if you think the rod is underlined would I use the 5 wt line.

 

Read this to understand what happens when you overline a fly rod:

 

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-rods/222260-fly-rod-line-rating-power-action-explanation.html#post372812

 

I've never overlined a fly rod EXCEPT to cast against the wind or to cast larger flies, the two reasons whatlfy and mikeshell have stated. I have never over lined to cast short, but I know that others do. It's your rod so you can do what feels best and what suits your casting style.

 

My belief has been that routinely overlining a rod means that you bought the wrong rod and lots of folks do. If they didn't, there would be no reason for manufacturers like Rio to make the Rio Grand, a fly line that is purposely 1 wt higher than they are labeled.

 

http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/freshwater/trout/intouch-rio-grand/

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If a 4 wt casts a 5wt line "better" than a 4wt line, then it is a 5wt. How hard is that to understand?

 

There is so much marketing BullSh** in fly fishing, that it has become hilarious.

 

These days, people love to be told exactly how to do things, and not discover anything on their own. Huge companies and marketing ploys make that nearly impossible.

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Mike is only partially correct. A heavier line will carry a heavier fly but it will only cast further if the rod has the backbone to push the extra weight. Some rods do and some don't. I learned on glass rods and they tend to be quite slow. Many of the graphite rods are quite fast. When I first got a graphite rod I did find that I preferred to over line because it tended to slow down the rod which was more to what I was used to. I no longer do that. I have finally learned to cast the fast rods and generally use a line rated for the rod. As phg stated, The skill of the caster has a major bearing on which line is best for any given rod.

 

Also as stated above there are lines that are sold as 4wt but are in fact 5wt lines. The same is true of rods. In the rod manufacturers race to build 'fast' rods many 4wt rods are actually 5wts. It is all very confusing and it is a shame that the manufacturers have done this. The whole sport is very confusing to newbies without the manufacturers making it more so. Simplification would bring more folks into the sport instead of scaring them out of even trying.

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There is a system that some custom rod builders use to determine the "true" line weight to match a given rod. It is called the "Common Cents System", and it sounds pretty crazy at first but I've used it with some rods that I built and had good results.

It's based on the idea that fly rods are designed to load--and in this system, a "loaded" rod is described as one that is deflected (or bent, if you prefer) to 1/3 of its total length down from the tip--with about 30 feet of line outside the tip-top guide. If you're interested, you can Google "rod building" + "common cents" and you should find some articles that describe it in detail. In a nutshell, you fix the rod to a flat horizontal surface (such as a bench or table) with 1/3 of its total length hanging over the edge--this would be the "final" 1/3 of its length, from the 2/3 point to the tip. You take a small ziploc bag and hang it off the tip-top guide by an opened paper clip. Then you start dropping pennies (hence "Common CENTS") into the bag. When you've added enough pennies to deflect the portion of the rod that's hanging over the table, you use a formula to get the line weight--so many pennies = so many "grains" of line weight.

It's certainly not an exact science, but it works okay. Gives you a starting point, anyway.

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It all gets confusing to a newbie.

 

There is rod action and there is line rating. Rod action is independent of the fly line rating. Rod action is how the rod bends in response to a load. It is the shape of the bend. That is built into the fly rod and does not change.

 

The fly line rating is designated by the manufacturer and is supposedly how far the tip of the rod moves in response to a load.

 

The Common Cents System is a static method of measuring tip deflection and the shape of the rod bend that gives an estimate of rod action and fly line rating. It is not perfect because it is a static system that cannot account for the weight of the rod blank, or the weight distribution along the rod blank, or the angular momentum (swing weight) of the rod during a cast. These dynamic properties affect both how the rod feels and performs during the cast. I think it is a good starting point to find a rod to test cast.

 

Finally, every fly caster has a preferred casting stroke and timing. A fly rod bends as it being cast and this brings the rod tip closer to the fly casters hand. The functional length or chord of the fly rod shortens during the cast and then returns to static length. The casting stroke must account for this changing rod length during the cast to cast a tight loop.

 

 

 

 

That is why some caster prefer a fast action rod and some casters prefer a slower action fly rod. The bend of the rod in response to the load determines the required casting stroke to cast a tight loop. The goal is to find the rod that fits the preferred casting stroke of the fly caster.

 

What up lining or down lining a fly rod does is to change the rod load for a casting identical distances of fly line. Up lining or down lining changes the amount of rod bend, the length of the rod stroke, the timing of the casting stroke, and the shape of the rod stroke. What the fly caster is trying to do is to fit the rod's dynamic response to fit their rod stroke by changing the rod load. If you have to do that, you bought the wrong fly rod.

 

I don't think rod manufacturers intentionally misidentify the line rating for their fly rods. What I think happens is that the fly fisher (mostly male) wants a fast action fly rod, when their natural rod stroke fits a slower fly rod action. So when they buy the fast action rod, they think the rod manufacturer should have given the rod a higher line rating. So they up line the rod so it fits their preferred casting stroke and timing.

 

The rod is still a fast action rod with a fast action design that is less able to protect the tippet. The buyer is forced to use a higher weight fly line than they want to use, and the rod does not fit the need or wants of the buyer. Who's fault is that? I think it is the fault of the buyer who did not understand their own casting stroke and what rod action best fits it.

 

Read my post on fly rod line rating, power, and action:

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-rods/222260-fly-rod-line-rating-power-action-explanation.html

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The Common Cents System is a static method of measuring tip deflection and the shape of the rod bend that gives an estimate of rod action and fly line rating. It is not perfect because it is a static system that cannot account for the weight of the rod blank, or the weight distribution along the rod blank, or the angular momentum (swing weight) of the rod during a cast. These dynamic properties affect both how the rod feels and performs during the cast. I think it is a good starting point to find a rod to test cast.

 

I agree with you SiverCreek. The CC system is a starting point, but i wouldn't use it as the be-all-end-all for determining what line weight to use. At the end of the day, you have to string up the rod with different lines and see what works best for you, as you said.

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I am kinda retarded. I forgot I own a 4 weight Lefty Kreh Signature rod. It is total crap with a 5 weight line on it.

 

I have a 4 weight Scientific Angler Mastery trout line on it and it is pretty great for dries and small nymphs with that line. The five weight line I tried on it didn't make it cast large flies any better and it totally threw off the accuracy for dries by causing the rod tip to violently shake when you make the cast. Sorry I kinda spaced out when I replied before.

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