Durability of whip finish with head cement vs. 2 whip finishes?

[H.Champagne 0]

I have done both and feel that going the head cement route is much stronger.

 

I have an old strip of soft wood I think its cedar thats like 1/4"x2"x16" and I stick flies on the edge of it as I tie them and when I feel like my eyes are going to burn out of my head from tying I stop and apply head cement to those flies already completed. I feel like its faster than doing it to each fly individually but who knows. Other times if I'm feeling more OCD I apply HC to each fly individually.

 

I think it also depends on the fly you are tying. If you are tying something delicate that is going to get crushed by two solid takes then maybe some nice tight whip finishes are ok on their own. But if you are tying flashback pheasant tails to fish the shit out of then I'd say a couple tight whips and a healthy dose of head cement. We can't let these trout start to think that we are getting lazy...

[rstaight 0]

I have tried 2 or 3 half-hitches, super glue and just wrapping without the half-hitch or whip finish, multiple whip finishes. I keep coming back to the 4 or 5 turn whip finish and head cement.

 

The bees wax I have not heard of. May have to try it just to see.

[Chris_NH 0]

Lots of interesting comments. I appreciate y'all taking the time.

 

I'm still having a hard time in my mind with the whip finish deconstruction. A snell knot was mentioned... and a whip does look similar, but I don't think it's the same. Just checked it out at animatedknots website and while similar, it does seem to be a bit different.

[fishinguy 0]

Lots of interesting comments. I appreciate y'all taking the time.

 

I'm still having a hard time in my mind with the whip finish deconstruction. A snell knot was mentioned... and a whip does look similar, but I don't think it's the same. Just checked it out at animatedknots website and while similar, it does seem to be a bit different.

whip finish vs half hitch knot

 

see post #18 for photos of each knot

 

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=32110&page=2

this didn't help?

[Chris_NH 0]

Yes, that photo helped in understanding the construction of a whip finish. Not sure which end is which - like on that pen blank where the whip is tied, where the eye of the hook would be and where the whip was started in relation to the eye, though.

 

But it doesn't address the question of whether multiple turns around the half hitch tool is identical to a whip finish. On that I'm still a bit fuzzy.

[heavynets 0]

"But it doesn't address the question of whether multiple turns around the half hitch tool is identical to a whip finish."

 

They are not the same the way I do them. A whip finish grabs MUCH better.

 

Something else to consider that can affect the durability is the direction(s) in which the knots are applied. If a whip finish is applied left to right it is not laid down exactly the same as if laid down right to left. The same applies to the half-hitch. Waxed thread and floss vs braided thread can also make a difference in the durability. Obviously the quality and amount of head cement will also affect the durability.

 

In my opinion, in order of durability they are: a whip finish, half-hitch, multi-turn tool.

[JSzymczyk 0]

Multiple wraps going forward over the tag end which is then pulled tight and trimmed flush is a multi-turn half hitch- same as a whip finish. Same also as how a rod builder finishes wrapping a guide. We're not splitting the atom here... it is the same knot. If you wrap multiple times around your half hitch tool, the only difference is if you keep all the wraps in order when you pull it tight. With a whip finish, you are laying down the wraps tightly, one in front of the other, with the other method, you are trying to pull loose wraps together with a lot of slack. You also have to maintain the correct direction while advancing the wraps. I posted pics of this using very heavy line a few years ago on this forum but don't have time to search them out now. Once you see it, it is completely obvious.

[JSzymczyk 0]

by the way, like all stereotypical fly tiers, we are making way too much out of this. If your flies fall apart, they are not durable enough. If your flies hold up to your fishing, they are durable enough. The fish are not going to look at your finishing knot on the head of your fly and use it as a deciding factor. In the end, it just doesn't matter what knot you use on the head of your fly as long as you're ok with it.

[Chris_NH 0]

by the way, like all stereotypical fly tiers, we are making way too much out of this. If your flies fall apart, they are not durable enough. If your flies hold up to your fishing, they are durable enough. The fish are not going to look at your finishing knot on the head of your fly and use it as a deciding factor. In the end, it just doesn't matter what knot you use on the head of your fly as long as you're ok with it.

That's the thing, though, I'm not going to be okay with it until I comprehend exactly what's happening, and which method is most durable. It's the goofy way my mind works, and the reason I started the thread in the first place. It comes in handy in lots of things, but it's a pain in the ass on other, less consequential things.

 

I don't have flies that fall apart. You'd think that would be good enough for me, but noooo... What can I say...

[Poopdeck 0]

I didn't look at the pictures until today. A whip and a half hitch or any part of them are not the same. They are completely different knots. Now a whip and a snell are exactly the same. Not an easy snell or quick snell knot, a real full bodied snell knot and whip are identical. From now on I'm gonna honor my bait fishing heritage by finishing my flies with a snell knot.

[thinkingredneck 0]

I have seen some pictures in old books of flies that appear to be tied on snelled hooks. I wonder how that goes? Seems like it would be similar to tying over a wire weed guard, but worse,

I agree with the above post that the need for glue depends on the amount of materials. I use glue a lot when tying for LMB and salt but use 2 whips for trout or bream. The Wilsons think that Bream can smell glue. Who knows ?

[rstaight 0]

Lets see here, "The Wilsons think that bream can smell glue." Maybe I need to crush some bee moth larvae and mix with my head cement.

[Dave G. 0]

I don't use half hitches for heads, period. I do use them when spinning dubbing ropes or other internal actions in building the fly. The heads of my flies all get a 4-5 turn whip.

[JSzymczyk 0]

ok If you were to start a whip finish, and only make one turn then pull it tight, what would it be?

[Bruce M 0]

I think that would be just a half hitch.