JSzymczyk 0 Report post Posted December 17, 2016 pro staff bro that's what instantly makes me stop listening. Hope you were joking. Is there such a thing as a "Professional" Fly Tier? I really don't know. I think if fly tying is classified as a profession, and the tier earns an income doing it, then yes. However, a fly tier would have a much lower requirement level than a brain surgeon. I think if a person earns an income from a profession requiring education, training, and experience, then that person is a professional. Fly tying education may be self obtained book knowledge or individual instructions. No formal education or training is required so may not be considered a profession. It is extensive experience that develops well enough flies to earn an income. If tiers are good enough to earn an income then maybe they should be termed professionals. Who decides what is a profession? There are many different sources of opinions. I tied thousands of flies for several Alaskan fly shops and the shops labeled them "Professionally Tied in Alaska". Is that false advertising? I taught law enforcement at Southern Illinois University in the 80s and early 90s after police retirement. I recall taking a graduate course where a professor claimed police officers were not professionals. He said there were several requirements to be a professional and police officers met all but one, "Autonomy". That meant no supervision or external control. I argued that he, a college professor, would not be a professional because he answers to someone, even if tenured. Although, a white collar criminal mastermind could be a professional. I can't think of any position, short of a governmental dictator, that would be autonomous. Well... I was when I sold flies but did not meet their formal academic requirement. Would have been a very short course for me. I'd have told the "professor" to get bent. I was taught early on that in any course of events, a person is a "Professional" if OTHER people are depending on the abilities of that person for their safety and well being over time. I don't see FLY TYING in and of itself to be a profession except for the hard working people in Africa and Asia who churn out flies for people in North America who are too lazy or half-hearted to tie their own. In the actual fishing world, someone SHOULD be innovative, successful at catching, and a good author- or at least a good personality on the small screen. Nearly all of our current crop of people who we sort of recognize as Professionals are now above guiding, own or manage fly shops in destination-locations, can engagingly write about what they do and why they do it, etc etc. Not all, but most. The tyers who make full dress salmon flies for framing, not fishing, are in there somewhere, but on a different shelf. Most of who we call professionals are more "Fishing Industry Professionals" rather than "Professional Fly Tyers". If you desire to be a "professional" as in earn a living selling fishing tackle you make, flies probably aren't the way to go. I just saw a story about a regular guy who has been making swim-baits for LMB, he made a bullfrog swim bait and it sold for $1700 on ebay. He's apparently got a waiting list now. Making lures such as properly balanced and well performing crankbaits and balsa minnows by hand is truly much more complex and labor intensive than almost any fly tying. The money is in the mass markets of Largemouth Bass fishing with standard gear. I don't understand why, but it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Li'lDave 0 Report post Posted December 17, 2016 ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris_NH 0 Report post Posted December 17, 2016 I thought it was the same as sports, e.g. amateur golfer vs professional golfer. Amateurs don't get paid, and pros do. The amateurs may put just as much time, education and effort, but don't get direct compensation. It's a pretty common use of the word professional. I know the practice has skewed out of whack in modern times, but the concept was pretty clear. As applied to fly tying, pros sell their flies, amateurs don't. This take makes the most sense to me of any that I've read so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Bob LeMay 0 Report post Posted December 17, 2016 A professional tyer... that's someone having trouble paying his/her bills.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carl Z 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2016 Poor. Ooops, Capt. Bob beat me too it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlatsRoamer 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2016 Yeah im not sure being a pro tier as a living is a very good idea... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rstaight 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2016 I used to make wooden basket bases for a basket shop that my wife frequented. The orders I got started around mid October and I was busy through Mid December. It was due to weavers makeing Christmas presents. I would get a few orders throughout the year but not a lot. Was I a professional wood worker? You could make that arument since I was paid for my work and my return business relied totally on my ability. Could I make a living at it? Not at the level I was at. Could I make a living at it? Sure, but it would be a lot of work finding customers and building product. I was able to purchase some items for the shop with what I made. The same holds true for fly tying. If you sell your stuff on a regular basis, you are professional. But it would be very, very tough to make a comfortable living at it when competing against the off shore companies. Ask yourself. Can I find enough shops or private customers to make ends meet? Then am I willing to put in the time required to fill the orders that will be needed to make ends meet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Poopdeck 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2016 A professional fly tier is simply somebody not happy with being a simple fly tier. It's a title to self elevate over others. Ever heard of somebody refer to themselves as an amateur hobbyist fly tier? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris_NH 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2016 A professional fly tier is simply somebody not happy with being a simple fly tier. It's a title to self elevate over others. Ever heard of somebody refer to themselves as an amateur hobbyist fly tier? In the same way a professional race car driver is simply someone not happy as a simple driver who's only looking to self elevate themselves over others? Or perhaps the term professional means they're paid to do it and not an ego thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Poopdeck 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2016 Race car driver and fly tier, your really making that comparison. Fly tying is arts and craft not building and driving a car 200 mph in a pack of other drivers doing the same thing. If your definition of a professional is based on sports then there is no such thing as a professional fly tier. In fly tying, at best, it's about noteriety which feeds the ego. If by professional you mean the way in which a fly tier carries himself then Ok but those types are not the ones running around calling themselves or wondering if they are a professional. I can tie a clouser does that make me a professional. I bet my clouser looks like everybody else's clouser. Are we all professionals or do I have to sell a few to make me a professional? If so the bar to be a pro is not set that high is it. Maybe I have to sell some hares ears as well or do I have to do it full time while living in squalor to be a pro. If there are professional fly tiers it would be those little women in China cranking out two dozen flies an hour 18 hours a day. Maybe it's the guy that ties one fly a day and is suitable for framing. Pure unadulterated ego for those that call themselves or want to be looked at as a professional tier. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Gallop 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2016 I think we can all agree that a professional is someone engaged in a profession. However, there is not a specific definition of what a profession is. An academic definition varies considerably from a Webster's version, making it ambiguous. That was my point in the original post. When I was a kid (in the 50s) there were professional fly shops that hired as many as a dozen or more tiers. I believe Orvis had such a shop. But, as time progressed, fly imports came from China to Africa at a small fraction of the cost to tie them in the USA. The fly shops closed. I doubt anyone in the USA can make a living tying flies these days. Sure... I made decent mad money tying specialty Alaskan flies but it was far from what a person needed to survive. It was fun at first but became a burden when it took time away from other activities. I learned to tie fast but a hundred of one pattern was very boring. I burned out and quit. In fact, I didn't tie at all for nearly 2 years after that. I consider myself a decent tier. If I take my time I can tie just about any pattern, or duplicate most any fly, if I have the material. The only problem I have is tying consistent fancy full dress Atlantic Salmon flies. To me, those that do deserve the professional title, even if it is a an honorable title. In my opinion, that requires an ultimate tying skill level. I have never been able to tie two that look the same. It's out of my league. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikechell 0 Report post Posted December 19, 2016 If so the bar to be a pro is not set that high is it. This is, basically, the whole point of this thread. And my opinion is, there is NO bar. The misunderstanding is in comparing a "professional" with an "expert" or a "professor". A professional doesn't need to be an expert, period. As Ed said above, " ... a professional is someone engaged in a profession." There are "pro losers" in the wrestling entertainment world. There are "professionals" in every line of business from ditch diggers to astro-physicists. One can be a professional shelf stocker ... if that's what one does to earn a living or, at least, to make money. There are many experts in various fields that don't make a dime off that expertise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swampsinger 0 Report post Posted December 19, 2016 So are we talkin about a noun or adjective? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deerhairdan 0 Report post Posted December 19, 2016 pro staff bro that's what instantly makes me stop listening. Hope you were joking. yep Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikechell 0 Report post Posted December 19, 2016 So are we talkin about a noun or adjective? Don't muddy the water. If we can't get an agreement on what a professional is (noun), then there's no way to gauge what defines "professional quality". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites