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FlorentineJohn

Best thread for small Elk Hair Caddis, Comparaduns & Stimulators?

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Hi! 

I hope everyone is keeping safe.

I also hope you can help me: what fly tying thread do you suggest for tying small (sz. 16 and smaller) Elk Hair Caddis, Comparaduns and Stimulators? I am looking for a thread that is not bulky and that will not break too easily.

Thank you!

 

John

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The Veevus threads are about the strongest per diameter you can find unless you go with the nano or gelspun threads.  I have no problem with 10/0 veevus on those patterns.  That said, I should tell you that I no longer use any "fly tying" threads at all.   I have switches to Gutermann Skala (a polyester sewing thread,) for all my tying.  The 240 size works just as well for me as 10/0 veevus.  Not quite as thin, but thin enough.

 

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Hi the tying thread I would recommend GSP thread 50 denier thread excellent for spinning deer hair and an excellent midge thread hope this helps

Kind regards Steve 😉

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Don't drink the koolaid!

Manufacturers especially Veevus are playing games with the aught labeling system. You would think that a 16/0 thread would be thinner than a 8/0 thread but no so if the manufacturer is different.

Why does the Veevus 12/0 in the chart below have the identical denier measurement (70 denier) as the Veevus 14/0? Why is the Veevus 12/0 thicker than the 14/0 in mm (.049 vs .047 mm).

30923115177_f2577b40ec_o.png

I've tied with both 14/0 and 16/0 Veevus.  They seem excellent, but not a huge advance over other excellent threads. 

First of all, there in NO FREE LUNCH in tying threads. Some threads advertise that they are stronger but the strength of thread is from the strength of the AMOUNT of material AND the MATERIAL strength. One thread manufacturer's Nylon and Polyester fiber is not stronger than another manufacturer's Nylon and Polyester fiber. They all buy from the same chemical companies that manufacture the nylon and polyester. Do you think that they can get a custom run of nylon or polyester for the amount of material these guys use?

For more than you ever wanted to know about fly tying threads, have a look at this article by Chris Helms:  http://www.swtu.org/pdfs/fly_tying/Threads.pdf   (It was written before Veevus came on the scene.)

One of the lessons from the article is that the "ought" measure of thread size varies all over the place.  One maker's 8/0 is the same as another maker's 12/0.  For example Uni 8/0 and Benecchi 12/0 are very similar.  

That has been my experience too.  The hook shank below is wrapped with exactly 40 wraps of eight different threads. Why does the UNI 8/0 have less bulk than the Veevus 14/0 and 16/0. Could it be that Veevus is trying to fool us!

k3n6.jpg.f2d92aeb99563a0ededa95dceee2ab98.jpg

The third issue is that twisted thread builds up bulk faster than untwisted thread because untwisted lies FLAT and twisted has air spaces between the wraps!

Uni thread untwisted.

gp4h.jpg.71483c14be80d150f71cb08f8bc0c3c7.jpg

 

The fourth issue is how the thread is bonded.

 

35555713962_1ca90092a0.jpg.b4671fdd10d60c4e34d668070dc233da.jpg

Here is the best table for tying threads. Many manufacturers have threads rated as "strong".

https://globalflyfisher.com/tie-better/fly-tying-thread-table

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, SilverCreek said:

Don't drink the koolaid!

Manufacturers especially Veevus are playing games with the aught labeling system. You would think that a 16/0 thread would be thinner than a 8/0 thread but no so if the manufacturer is different.

Why does the Veevus 12/0 in the chart below have the identical denier measurement (70 denier) as the Veevus 14/0? Why is the Veevus 12/0 thicker than the 14/0 in mm (.049 vs .047 mm).

30923115177_f2577b40ec_o.png

I've tied with both 14/0 and 16/0 Veevus.  They seem excellent, but not a huge advance over other excellent threads. 

First of all, there in NO FREE LUNCH in tying threads. Some threads advertise that they are stronger but the strength of thread is from the strength of the AMOUNT of material AND the MATERIAL strength. One thread manufacturer's Nylon and Polyester fiber is not stronger than another manufacturer's Nylon and Polyester fiber. They all buy from the same chemical companies that manufacture the nylon and polyester. Do you think that they can get a custom run of nylon or polyester for the amount of material these guys use?

For more than you ever wanted to know about fly tying threads, have a look at this article by Chris Helms:  http://www.swtu.org/pdfs/fly_tying/Threads.pdf   (It was written before Veevus came on the scene.)

One of the lessons from the article is that the "ought" measure of thread size varies all over the place.  One maker's 8/0 is the same as another maker's 12/0.  For example Uni 8/0 and Benecchi 12/0 are very similar.  

That has been my experience too.  The hook shank below is wrapped with exactly 40 wraps of eight different threads. Why does the UNI 8/0 have less bulk than the Veevus 14/0 and 16/0. Could it be that Veevus is trying to fool us!

k3n6.jpg.f2d92aeb99563a0ededa95dceee2ab98.jpg

The third issue is that twisted thread builds up bulk faster than untwisted thread because untwisted lies FLAT and twisted has air spaces between the wraps!

Uni thread untwisted.

gp4h.jpg.71483c14be80d150f71cb08f8bc0c3c7.jpg

 

The fourth issue is how the thread is bonded.

 

35555713962_1ca90092a0.jpg.b4671fdd10d60c4e34d668070dc233da.jpg

Here is the best table for tying threads. Many manufacturers have threads rated as "strong".

https://globalflyfisher.com/tie-better/fly-tying-thread-table

 

 

 

 

 

I’ve used a ton of different types of threads and the best I’ve used is the veevus ones.  14/0 is close to 16/0 for sure, one is flat the other is a round thread.  This could be the difference in their labeling.  10/0 is flat as well, and Definately stronger than the 14/0.  I’ve not used the 12/0 so I don’t know.   Simple fact is that the ought system is different for each manufacturer that’s for sure.  But veevus 16/0 is some of the finest thread I’ve used that isn’t delicate.  I tie flies down to 30 with it, and it doesn’t bulk up much.  Same with the 14/0.  But it’s strong.  No breakage.  There is a difference between the threat makeup as well as what you said above.  UTC Frays so badly each time I use it.  Just touching it with my rough fingers makes it loose strands.  Never have that issue with veevus (unless I catch the hook point).  Danville also has good quality thread, much stronger and more durable than UTC 70... just it’s not flat, at least the 6/0 stuff isn’t.  Anyway, I wouldn’t say people are being duped buying veevus.  I personally only tie with it now, it’s the best quality in my opinion.  I have a friend that swears by sempi fly (something like that I could be spelling it wrong) but I haven’t used it yet.  I hear it’s even stronger.  Who knows..

 

btw, yes 10/0 would be fine for all those flies.  

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Wow, thank you! Unfortunately I am a little more confused than I was before...

I have tried Uni-thread 8/0 and it breaks in my clumsy hands too easily; UTC also frays way too easily.

Is the Veevus 10/0 UTYER and McFlyLures refer to GSP thread? Steve, what GSP thread 50 denier brand do you prefer?

Looking at the chart that SilverCreek kindly provided, two threads pop to my attention: a) the Semperfli Nano Silk Ultra Fine 30D 18/0 (so fine that it may cut the hair, though), as well as b) the UNI Uni-Cord 12/0. Has anyone tried either one?

Thank you!!

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1 hour ago, FlorentineJohn said:

Wow, thank you! Unfortunately I am a little more confused than I was before...

I have tried Uni-thread 8/0 and it breaks in my clumsy hands too easily; UTC also frays way too easily.

Is the Veevus 10/0 UTYER and McFlyLures refer to GSP thread? Steve, what GSP thread 50 denier brand do you prefer?

Looking at the chart that SilverCreek kindly provided, two threads pop to my attention: a) the Semperfli Nano Silk Ultra Fine 30D 18/0 (so fine that it may cut the hair, though), as well as b) the UNI Uni-Cord 12/0. Has anyone tried either one?

Thank you!!

No reason to be confused. I use Danvile, UTC, Uni and more recently Veevus. I choose for colors and then for the material since I like the color to match my dubbing.

Then I look at threads in terms of what the material is made of, how the thread is constructed.

The two most common materials are nylon and polyester. These two materials have different properties. 

Nylon stretches and so it is an easier material for beginners to use for tying smaller trout flies The reason is that nylon will give the fly tier a warning BEFORE it breaks because it stretches before it breaks. Nylon also is easier to dye in brighter colors so if you need a fly color that "pops" like a fluorescent color, you probably will find that is a brand that is nylon. Danville Flymaster and Wapsi UTC threads are nylon and that is why they are so popular with fly tyers, especially beginners. Beginners will break thread less often with a nylon thread because it gives them a warning and they wrap tighter bodies because the thread contracts once it is tied off.

If nylon is so great why would anyone use polyester. The reason is that a none stretching thread ultimately gives the tyer more control and because nylon wraps will loosen over time BECAUSE the tread stretches. The nylon thread wraps are under tension and over time that tension loosens the wraps. Polyester thread wraps are also under tension and because the thread does not stretch the wraps will stay tight. Unithread and Veevus are polyester threads.

GSP is another common material but it is usually reserved for tying deer hair bugs or other flies that require a great deal of strength and a material that does not stretch. It also dulls scissors faster. 

Another consideration is whether the thread is bonded or not and whether the thread can be spit for split thread dubbing. Easy to split threads have very little twist in the tread. Both Veevus and Wapsi UTC are easily split. Danville can also be spilt but it is a twisted thread. Unithread is bonded and is difficult to use for split thread dubbing.

35555713962_1ca90092a0.jpg

If you don’t use split thread dubbing rather than the more traditional dubbing loop, it does not matter whether the tread can be split or not.

Whether the thread is twisted or not changes the nature of the thread. Twisting the thread closes up the empty spaces and makes the thread thinner. Untwisted thread lies flatter on the fly when wound on the hook, produces less bulk because there are no empty air spaces as there are when twisted thread loops are stacked up.

A versatile thread would be a thread that can can be untwisted or twisted as one needs and if you watch a fly tying demo closely, you will see tyers spin the bobbin to twist or to flatten (untwist) the tread. In fact each wrap of the thread around the hook creates a twist in the thread.

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17 hours ago, FlorentineJohn said:

I have tried Uni-thread 8/0 and it breaks in my clumsy hands too easily

If you're breaking the uni 8/0 when tightening the hair before it flairs or bends, another possibility is you might need to clean the underfur out of the hair better before stacking it. 

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For small Elk Hair Caddis, I find I don't need anything more than 6/0 Danville.

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33 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

For small Elk Hair Caddis, I find I don't need anything more than 6/0 Danville.

I'm with you 100%. 6/0 Danville has been the standard, literraly for decades. It is a good thread and I tie a lot of flies with it.

Sometimes you need a very fine thread, but a lot of times it causes/temps the tyer to use more wraps.

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If the OP is breaking uni 8/0 (see his response above), he's gonna break Danville 6/0, too. Same breaking strength, same thickness. Essentially.

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9 hours ago, chugbug27 said:

If the OP is breaking uni 8/0 (see his response above), he's gonna break Danville 6/0, too. Same breaking strength, same thickness. Essentially.

Good observation!

I suggest he try Danville Flymaster 140 which is a nylon thread rather than a polyester thread. It will stretch and give him a warning before it breaks. It is also stronger at 907 gms breaking strength than the the Uni 8/0 at 450 gms and is THINNER at .046 mm than the Uni 8/0 which is .051 mm. 

He could try Veevus 8/0 which is thicker and stronger than Uni 8/0 but the veevus is thicker than the Danville Flymaster 140. The Veevus is also polyester and will not stretch as much as the nylon Danville to give him as much warning about breaking.

The OP may have rough hands that fray the thread so use hand lotion to soften them. Also just wrap a hook and practice breaking the thread so you know how much pressure the thread can take. 

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