TSMcDougald 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2020 19 minutes ago, bdngrd said: 👍 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
niveker 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, samsonboi said: Those are Haystacks. Great tie though. ...Comparaduns are a ripoff of the haystack that only has one thing changed- the tail. Comparadun tails are made of hackle fibers. I agree with your great tie sentiment, but your other opinion, not so much. Fran Betters did develop that style of fly - no hackle, hairwing, dubbed body, etc. However, a haystack has a clump of deer hair for the tail, and a body very loosely dubbed, both of which were deliberately used to increase flotation on Mr. Betters' rough home waters. Caucci altered the tail, using far fewer fibers (hackle fibers at first, micro-fibbets later, i belive) and tightly dubbed the body. It was an improvement in the design to better suit his home water, the flat, smooth upper Delaware, where a more accurate silhouette was required. So, in conclusion, though TSMcDougal's fly does have hair fibers (moose) for the tail, they are tied in the style of a Comparadun, as is his tightly dubbed body. You guys can call it what you like, I'll call it a nice looking fly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSMcDougald 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, niveker said: I agree with your great tie sentiment, but your other opinion, not so much. Fran Betters did develop that style of fly - no hackle, hairwing, dubbed body, etc. However, a haystack has a clump of deer hair for the tail, and a body very loosely dubbed, both of which were deliberately used to increase flotation on Mr. Betters' rough home waters. Caucci altered the tail, using far fewer fibers (hackle fibers at first, micro-fibbets later, i belive) and tightly dubbed the body. It was an improvement in the design to better suit his home water, the flat, smooth upper Delaware, where a more accurate silhouette was required. So, in conclusion, though TSMcDougal's fly does have hair fibers (moose) for the tail, they are tied in the style of a Comparadun, as is his tightly dubbed body. The white one has a mix. The abdomen is white moose mane coated in UV resin and the thorax is tan superfine. The other has abdomen and thorax both of callibaetis colored superfine. Edit to add: I used some hair from the deer face my wife bought me. There is some really soft fur on parts of it that runs from white to beige and is really great to tie with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samsonboi 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, niveker said: I agree with your great tie sentiment, but your other opinion, not so much. Fran Betters did develop that style of fly - no hackle, hairwing, dubbed body, etc. However, a haystack has a clump of deer hair for the tail, and a body very loosely dubbed, both of which were deliberately used to increase flotation on Mr. Betters' rough home waters. Caucci altered the tail, using far fewer fibers (hackle fibers at first, micro-fibbets later, i belive) and tightly dubbed the body. It was an improvement in the design to better suit his home water, the flat, smooth upper Delaware, where a more accurate silhouette was required. So, in conclusion, though TSMcDougal's fly does have hair fibers (moose) for the tail, they are tied in the style of a Comparadun, as is his tightly dubbed body. You guys can call it what you like, I'll call it a nice looking fly. Hmm. I have a few examples of Betters-tied flies. A couple of the Haystacks are tightly dubbed. A couple are not. Side note: Fran said he did not develop the Haystack. It was a pattern often used by him, his (adoptive) dad and his dad’s friends, however. I think it was developed by his adoptive dad’s father? Could be wrong on that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
niveker 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2020 22 minutes ago, samsonboi said: Hmm. I have a few examples of Betters-tied flies. A couple of the Haystacks are tightly dubbed. A couple are not. Side note: Fran said he did not develop the Haystack. It was a pattern often used by him, his (adoptive) dad and his dad’s friends, however. I think it was developed by his adoptive dad’s father? Could be wrong on that. A rough looking fly is a Betters hallmark, though some may be neater than others. From what I have read, although I couldn't cite a source, the rough body was intended to increase trapped air, and thus help with flotation. As to Mr. Betters not being the developer, that's an interesting tidbit I have never heard, although it certainly has become associated with him over the years, I think there may be more than just a few flies like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 Moose Wing Paddy Francis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdngrd 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 ^^^^^^ Pretty cool! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 Elmer's Special Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandan 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 2 hours ago, flytire said: Elmer's Special All nice, sir. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xterrabill 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 I am still trying to get back into this crazy/cool/relaxing addiction. Here are 2 I tied up this week. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Knapp 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 On 7/8/2020 at 10:43 AM, samsonboi said: Comparaduns are a ripoff of the haystack that only has one thing changed- the tail. Comparadun tails are made of hackle fibers. There was a time when all you had to do is change a hackle and/or tail color on a fly and give it a new name and, guess what? You have invented a whole new original fly. Not so any more, everything is a "Variation" of some other fly (in some peoples minds). I tend to disagree with that, to some degree, because new materials and techniques are coming out all the time. With those, it's inevitable that there must be new flies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSMcDougald 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 People alter flies all the time to make them more suitable for the waters they fish. They are not ripping off another fly by doing so. Call it a the term of your choice but it is certainly not a ripoff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Knapp 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 34 minutes ago, TSMcDougald said: People alter flies all the time to make them more suitable for the waters they fish. They are not ripping off another fly by doing so. Call it a the term of your choice but it is certainly not a ripoff. You are correct, Sir. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McFlyLures 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Mark Knapp said: There was a time when all you had to do is change a hackle and/or tail color on a fly and give it a new name and, guess what? You have invented a whole new original fly. Not so any more, everything is a "Variation" of some other fly (in some peoples minds). I tend to disagree with that, to some degree, because new materials and techniques are coming out all the time. With those, it's inevitable that there must be new flies. Yeah I agree. I tied up some flies that looked similar to another guys flies. I sold them. I didn’t “copy” his. He lost it on me and said he worked so hard to get that fly on the market, for me to just steal it and sell it myself. Lol! I was like but........ it’s not the same, different materials all together and arranged differently.... He said well a variation is still that fly. 🙄. Crazy crazy people out there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samsonboi 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2020 Ok, I’ll take that. It’s a great fly in its own right and it is different. Caucci and Nastasi did give Fran credit but not enough and there is a bit of a disconnect in people’s minds; many people know what a Comparadun is but the Haystack is more obscure with today’s fly fishermen.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites