Selecting my first hackle

[Moshup 0]

Thank you gentlemen. Gene basically it’s a brown Quill Gordon used to imitate the Mahogany Dun.  
Hook... Mustad 94840 sz 14

Thread..Sheer 14/0  brown

Tail.... Furnace or brown

Body..peacock eye stripped dyed brown or you can hit it with a brown marker

Wings..Wooduck flank

Hackle.Furnace

[Gene L 0]

Think a stripped brown quill would work instead of a peacock quill dyed brown?

[Moshup 0]

32 minutes ago, Gene L said:

Think a stripped brown quill would work instead of a peacock quill dyed brown?

Why not ?  Should be a natural brown as with a dyed brown the stem won’t have much color.

[caddis16 0]

20 hours ago, essequamvideri said:

Caddis16,

I'm curious if you have been to his shop?  If you haven't, you might want to stop in sometime.  It is just north of east west nowhere.  It is about 2 1/2 hours north of my home.  However, his shop is amazing and his hackles he has created are incredible.  I thought they were quite reasonable in price and picked up a couple.  Interesting guy to have a conversation with,  he is a retired Game Warden and has a multitude if stories.  

 

Michael

Yup been there once. Bit of a drive from here. Mail ordered a few times too. 

[Bill_729 0]

On 7/4/2020 at 11:40 PM, cheesetheboss said:

I have been tying for a while now but have been putting off the idea of buying quality hackle because of the price tag but its time I bit the bullet. I am looking to get some Whiting hackle in medium grey dun, brown, grizzly, and golden badger. Anyway, is golden badger an ok substitute for ginger or cream on general mayfly patterns? I like the idea of it being a bit more unique then standard cream or ginger. Also I have been on a big catskill dry fly and winged wet fly kick so I am considering the Hebert Miner line over high n dry or red label hackle, does anyone notice any difference between those three lines or recommend one over the others?

Thanks for the help

Quoting: "The Compleat Angler, Izaak Walton’s fishing classic, is a celebration of the art and spirit of fishing. Through prose, verse, song, and folklore, Walton inspires readers to go into nature — to go to its meandering streams and rivers — and fish. Walton teaches us about a life filled with harmony between nature, man, and God; and a life spent in the company of friends and free from the hustle of the city."

--And, all this without any genetically-engineered hackle...  Most of my hackle is from the 70s, when I was just getting started, so I can't comment further about the genetically engineered stuff except what I've seen in reviews. I only tie for myself, and in pretty small numbers, so I am willing to do things like use two hackle feathers from an indian neck if necessary even if it takes a bit longer and the hackle isn't the highest quality available.  I use Craftsman tools too, not Snap-On, and I've never complained about these tools. Or, at least, I have accepted the value proposition for the time being. 

Based upon my experience, I would not buy a "grab bag". I would understand why I was purchasing a certain color before doing so.  Materials you will make little use of  aren't much of a value even at a good price. I mostly tie for warm water, and am seldom fishing exotic dry flies, so that may (certainly) have affected my current point of view, which is not cast in stone.

Being  in search of a brown rooster neck. I spent about 2 hours reading threads (including this one)  and a few other web sitesyesterday. This post is part of my reflection on my experience.  It's remarkable where good breeding, and marketing, have taken fly fishing over the years years. If I visit my local fly shop's web page, $1100 rods are on the center of the main page.  Some people buy Lexus' (cars) too, while others are having a hard time paying their rent during these unusual times. If the details start to make you dizzy, read the first paragraph I quoted above again to, perhaps, help revisit the matter with "fresh eyes".  As always, YMMV.  To the original poster: I don't think you can go wrong with either the Whiting Hebert Minor or High 'n Dry Hackle.  As I mentioned above, I'd probably avoid the grab bag, and it's probably even better if you can buy your necks in person (as there will be fewer surprises that way; there are a lot of "shades" of "brown"!) 

Cheers, Bill (Bill_729)

 

[samsonboi 0]

23 hours ago, Bill_729 said:

 

--And, all this without any genetically-engineered hackle...  Most of my hackle is from the 70s, when I was just getting started, so I can't comment further about the genetically engineered stuff except what I've seen in reviews. I only tie for myself, and in pretty small numbers, so I am willing to do things like use two hackle feathers from an indian neck if necessary even if it takes a bit longer and the hackle isn't the highest quality available.  I use Craftsman tools too, not Snap-On, and I've never complained about these tools. Or, at least, I have accepted the value proposition for the time being. 

It's not genetically engineered. It's called genetic hackle because it's bred for good hackle traits.

[Bill_729 0]

3 hours ago, samsonboi said:

It's not genetically engineered. It's called genetic hackle because it's bred for good hackle traits.

Thank you. I understood the latter but didn't realize that "selective breeding" does not fall under the umbrella of genetic engineering.  

"Supersize Me 2" is an interesting documentary about how chickens are raised for the food industry.  Does anyone here know whether American chickens raised for their hackle are also harvested for consumption (and thus, I expect,  would be overseen by the same government agencies, such as the FDA), or anything else concerning the matter?   (please excuse me for posting the question before doing a google search!).

Cheers, Bill

[SilverCreek 0]

1 minute ago, Bill_729 said:

Thank you. I understood the latter but didn't realize that "selective breeding" does not fall under the umbrella of genetic engineering.  

"Supersize Me 2" is an interesting documentary about how chickens are raised for the food industry.  Does anyone here know whether American chickens raised for their hackle are also harvested for consumption (and thus, I expect,  would be overseen by the same government agencies, such as the FDA), or anything else concerning the matter?   (please excuse me for posting the question before doing a google search!).

Cheers, Bill

Once the hackle is harvested, the carcasses are not used for human consumption. I think they are sold as animal feed.

[Poopdeck 0]

For the price of hackle it should be genetically engineered. Having a friend who is a DNA scientist who removes genes to produce lab mice with various problems I'm sure a chicken could be genitically engineered if the market and profitability were there. The problems of a Niche market I guess. 

[SilverCreek 0]

37 minutes ago, Poopdeck said:

For the price of hackle it should be genetically engineered. Having a friend who is a DNA scientist who removes genes to produce lab mice with various problems I'm sure a chicken could be genitically engineered if the market and profitability were there. The problems of a Niche market I guess. 

First of all, you would need the genome of the chicken, which is known. But then you would need what each gene loci of the genome controls which is not know and you would need to know the interactions of the various loci.

But here's the problem even if you could do that. The chicken is NOT a mammal and therefore you CANNOT implant a genetically engineered fertilized ovum into a female uterus as in mammals.

Manipulating the genes in mice is a piece of cake compared to a chicken.

https://www.thehappychickencoop.com/how-are-chicken-eggs-fertilized/

Chickens are HATCHED and within the fertilized egg is an EMBRYO and NOT an OVUM. Therefore you would need to operated on the hen and surgically REMOVE the original nucleus from the single cell fertilized stage (the zygote) from a hen and replace it with the genetically engineered nucleus. Then the hen would have to form the rest of the egg and shell AROUND the fertilized zygote which continues to divide is a multi-celled embryo when it the egg is laid. It is unknown whether a hen could do that after it's reproductive system has been surgically manipulated.

Even if we know how to manipulate the genetic code, operating on hens, removing the single cell zygote, removing the nucleus and replacing it with the genetically engineered nucleus and then reimplanting the zygote into the hen is not feasible. I don't believe it has ever been done successfully.

[mvendon 0]

1 hour ago, SilverCreek said:

Once the hackle is harvested, the carcasses are not used for human consumption. I think they are sold as animal feed.

This comes up here every now and then.  He uses them as fertilizer. Here's the thread

[Poopdeck 0]

1 hour ago, SilverCreek said:

First of all, you would need the genome of the chicken, which is known. But then you would need what each gene loci of the genome controls which is not know and you would need to know the interactions of the various loci.

But here's the problem even if you could do that. The chicken is NOT a mammal and therefore you CANNOT implant a genetically engineered fertilized ovum into a female uterus as in mammals.

Manipulating the genes in mice is a piece of cake compared to a chicken.

https://www.thehappychickencoop.com/how-are-chicken-eggs-fertilized/

Chickens are HATCHED and within the fertilized egg is an EMBRYO and NOT an OVUM. Therefore you would need to operated on the hen and surgically REMOVE the original nucleus from the single cell fertilized stage (the zygote) from a hen and replace it with the genetically engineered nucleus. Then the hen would have to form the rest of the egg and shell AROUND the fertilized zygote which continues to divide is a multi-celled embryo when it the egg is laid. It is unknown whether a hen could do that after it's reproductive system has been surgically manipulated.

Even if we know how to manipulate the genetic code, operating on hens, removing the single cell zygote, removing the nucleus and replacing it with the genetically engineered nucleus and then reimplanting the zygote into the hen is not feasible. I don't believe it has ever been done successfully.

Nice piece of info there silvercreek.  A feeble attempt on my part to extrapolate mammals out to a chicken.  This is why I am not a scientist. My feeble mind still believes it could be done quite easily if the profit were there to make it financially feasible. Going through life as simple minded as I sometimes has its challenges. 

[SilverCreek 0]

26 minutes ago, mvendon said:

This comes up here every now and then.  He uses them as fertilizer. Here's the thread

Thanks for that information. Using what you posted and Google, I found this:

https://modernfarmer.com/2016/07/meet-modern-farmer-tom-whiting/

"At about 50 weeks, the chickens are butchered and their feathers harvested. (Removing them would be painful to the bird.) The rest of the chicken is then composted for use on farming fields."

[SilverCreek 0]

Poopdeck,

If we could genetically design chickens, my wish would be a chicken with feathers that have "barbs" already shaped like a parachute post and hackle. Just cut the "barbs" and tie then onto a hook with a dubbed body and tail.

 

[niveker 0]

17 minutes ago, SilverCreek said:

Poopdeck,

If we could genetically design chickens, my wish would be a chicken with feathers that have "barbs" already shaped like a parachute post and hackle. Just cut the "barbs" and tie then onto a hook with a dubbed body and tail.

 

That, and boneless wings.