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Mark Knapp

Please read these guidelines for critique

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2 minutes ago, Mark Knapp said:

No one got to me. These are accepted practices taught in art schools all over the US. I personally haven't felt harshly critiqued but I have been paying attention and I have been asked to write something up.

I‚Äôve been polite. ūüôā

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One of the reasons why the fly tying/fishing community might be seen as arrogant and elitist may be the way we criticize others. There's a nice way and not-so nice way to say anything. I'm not saying don't critique, I'm just saying if you are going to critique, do it nicely, do it to help someone else and not for self-aggrandizement.

Who's going to argue about being nice?

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I want to first point out that I am saying this nicely. I can't help how it is received by the multitudes of people from many different socioeconomic groups and geographical locations from around the globe. I realize I am often misunderstood by some and perhaps comments on this thread are inappropriate but it seems to have provoked discussion and different opinions which I find to always be a good thing. 

someone leaving the site because they were offended for others?.?????., this is a good reason to leave the site. It is a terrible reason to enact a no discussion clause to postings. So basically, the only response to a fly picture, unless a specific request for comment is present, is, "beautiful fly, great job." That's a funny way of learning to me. Most flies I see posted are great ties anyway so I'm not so sure how often this problem comes up. I can honestly say I have never read any harsh critiques. I can also say some critiques have been received as harsh but typically by a third party and not the original poster. For the life of me I cannot understand this and see no reason why a  rule needs to be implemented to appease those that are easily offended for others. 

What some view as harsh is merely a geographical issue. I will use flytire as an example, he is from the Boston area and I have learned many things from him. Is he harsh, I don't think so, it's just the way it is in Boston. I'm from the Philadelphia area, we like to get to the point quickly and clearly. It may sound harsh to somebody in east gibip Wyoming but it's the Best way to live and communicate with the tens of thousands of people you walk by, drive by or talk to on any given day. That and a good car horn, which I have found to be an excellent way of communicating quickly with others. No anger in the horn or comments just simple effective communication. 

The worst form of communication is one dimensional communication which is exactly what the internet is.  People seem to forget this and see nothing but harshness and meanness without actually knowing the person on the other end. Pouting about the comments of others made to someone else without actually knowing the commentator or the someone else should be discouraged, not encouraged. 

its been my experience that those who ask for a critique are the ones least capable of accepting critique. 

The PM function discourages open discussion. why on earth would closed communications be encouraged and open discussion (on a discussion board) be curtailed. Other forums have been killed by them PM because it is sometimes used by members to speak with other members about the postings of others in an extremely negative way. In other words it becomes a tool to spread hate behind closed doors. 

I say this with nothing but respect and admiration for the moderators and owners of this site. It really is the best discussion forum on the web because of the efforts of SD, Mike, others I can't think of and no doubt Mark as well. As a rule follower I will follow all rules but this rule should be reconsidered because critique is not a bad thing.  Thanks for listening. 

 

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I frequent a fishing FB page. As for proper fish handling, some people get downright nasty. My approach- "May I suggest...,?" "You might try...."

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13 minutes ago, Poopdeck said:

enact a no discussion clause to postings. So basically, the only response to a fly picture, unless a specific request for comment is present, is, "beautiful fly, great job." That's a funny way of learning to me

Not at all Greg, that's not what he is saying. I think some of you guys are reading way more into what Mark said than is there. No one at all is saying you can't reply to a post with anything but rainbows & unicorns guys. We are simply saying just use common sense and if someone posts something then just offer help/advice in a helpful manner and not in a way that is insulting. For the most part that's what you guys do anyway, but there has been a few times when someone says something that comes across in a wrong way to some people. Just the nature of typed text and not face to face interactions is all.

Nothing more nothing less.

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There's an old adage to online communication.  (Yes, it's been around long enough to have "old" adages)  When reading a post, "If it can be taken as an insult or a joke, take it as a joke."

On the other hand, when YOU type something, read it.  Just believe that when other people read it, "If can be taken as an insult or a joke, they'll take it as an insult." and DON'T hit send.

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2 hours ago, Poopdeck said:

I want to first point out that I am saying this nicely. I can't help how it is received by the multitudes of people from many different socioeconomic groups and geographical locations from around the globe. I realize I am often misunderstood by some and perhaps comments on this thread are inappropriate but it seems to have provoked discussion and different opinions which I find to always be a good thing. 

someone leaving the site because they were offended for others?.?????., this is a good reason to leave the site. It is a terrible reason to enact a no discussion clause to postings. So basically, the only response to a fly picture, unless a specific request for comment is present, is, "beautiful fly, great job." That's a funny way of learning to me. Most flies I see posted are great ties anyway so I'm not so sure how often this problem comes up. I can honestly say I have never read any harsh critiques. I can also say some critiques have been received as harsh but typically by a third party and not the original poster. For the life of me I cannot understand this and see no reason why a  rule needs to be implemented to appease those that are easily offended for others. 

What some view as harsh is merely a geographical issue. I will use flytire as an example, he is from the Boston area and I have learned many things from him. Is he harsh, I don't think so, it's just the way it is in Boston. I'm from the Philadelphia area, we like to get to the point quickly and clearly. It may sound harsh to somebody in east gibip Wyoming but it's the Best way to live and communicate with the tens of thousands of people you walk by, drive by or talk to on any given day. That and a good car horn, which I have found to be an excellent way of communicating quickly with others. No anger in the horn or comments just simple effective communication. 

The worst form of communication is one dimensional communication which is exactly what the internet is.  People seem to forget this and see nothing but harshness and meanness without actually knowing the person on the other end. Pouting about the comments of others made to someone else without actually knowing the commentator or the someone else should be discouraged, not encouraged. 

its been my experience that those who ask for a critique are the ones least capable of accepting critique. 

The PM function discourages open discussion. why on earth would closed communications be encouraged and open discussion (on a discussion board) be curtailed. Other forums have been killed by them PM because it is sometimes used by members to speak with other members about the postings of others in an extremely negative way. In other words it becomes a tool to spread hate behind closed doors. 

I say this with nothing but respect and admiration for the moderators and owners of this site. It really is the best discussion forum on the web because of the efforts of SD, Mike, others I can't think of and no doubt Mark as well. As a rule follower I will follow all rules but this rule should be reconsidered because critique is not a bad thing.  Thanks for listening. 

 

You and I Mr. deck have had many discussions and we have often differed in our opinions. I have never felt like you (in this post or any other) have treated me or any one else poorly. Not so with some other people.

I have not said anything to limit discussion on the forum, I have tried to limit nasty and insulting discussion on the forum. I feel like we are all intelligent people and everyone here knows the difference between polite conversation and rude conversation. It's just as easy to say what you want to say nicely as it is to say it impolitely. I'm not sure why some people (not you) feel like it's more important for them to make their point quickly and curtly than it is to take care not to hurt someones feelings or insult them.

Someone not so long ago once told another person on here that their flies looked like crap, a young person at that, and they did not do it jokingly.

I'm not sure why it's hard to believe that someone would leave this site because they didn't like the way others were treated here. There are others here that feel the same way, they have not left (yet) but they have cut back (they say) for that reason. The one I talked to personally would not have been critiqued, he is very highly thought of here.

It is not the fault of the listener if they take something the wrong way, it's the responsibility of the speaker to say things in a way that cannot be mistaken (within reason). Especially on the internet, in written word where inflection and tone of voice cannot be heard. It's the sign of a skilled speaker to be able to say something and have people that don't know him understand him correctly (again, not you, you do it very well).

I have not implemented any new rules, the title is "Guidelines for critique", I used the word "Please" and I asked very nicely. I wrote it so people can be aware that other people have gotten their feelings hurt, some have left and others may not be posting or becoming members because of it.

A car horn can be blown with a polite, little "beep, beep" to mean "excuse me, the light is green and it appears you haven't noticed" or it can be blown like "BEEEEEEEEEEEEP" to mean "Get out blank out of the way you bleeping, stupid bleeping son of a bleep"

I agree with you on the PM function, if something is good enough to say to one person, it's good enough to say to everyone, out in the open. No body else learns from a PM.

When I write I try very hard not to insult or embarrass other people because it doesn't help them or anybody else. It just causes hard feeling and lowered contributions to the forum. I'm am secure enough in the things that I do that I don't need to tear someone else down to make my point.

 

 

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1 hour ago, mikechell said:

There's an old adage to online communication.  (Yes, it's been around long enough to have "old" adages)  When reading a post, "If it can be taken as an insult or a joke, take it as a joke."

On the other hand, when YOU type something, read it.  Just believe that when other people read it, "If can be taken as an insult or a joke, they'll take it as an insult." and DON'T hit send.

In my opinion, it shouldn't be written if it can be taken as an insult or a joke, it should be written so it can only be taken as a joke. If it's meant as an insult it will need to be handled in another way.

Any joke made in criticism is most likely to be taken as an insult unless it's made clear that it was meant as a joke.

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You‚Äôve been such a nice guy on this forum Mark Knapp. You must have a heart of gold. ūüôā

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I find this angst somewhat humorous -- if a tiny bit reminiscent of the 'safe zone' dynamic at our palaces of higher education. 

As it is, this site is very well mannered by comparison with most -- many?--  out there.   The administrators deserve lots of credit for keeping us on topic and civil.  But then,  how hard is it when the main ambient  tone of interactions  reflects the participants' common interests, and their enjoyment in and shared values about our sport.  

There are no ego trippers or trolls here, no evidence of clique wars and piling on behavior, and you would not even know it is election year here!

 

 

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This seems like an odd topic frankly, as most posts subsequent to Mark's original one (including Mark's additional posts and as well as other moderators) agree that unsolicited and destructively negative criticism occurs here only rarely.  

2 hours ago, Steeldrifter said:

I think some of you guys are reading way more into what Mark said than is there.

You highlight right there the problem of being overly sensitive to criticism and therefore, trying to turn the forum into a safe space by controlling how the criticism is perceived by the person being critiqued, whether the criticism is  intentional or inadvertent, meant positively or perceived to be negative.    

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1 hour ago, Mark Knapp said:

It is not the fault of the listener if they take something the wrong way, it's the responsibility of the speaker to say things in a way that cannot be mistaken (within reason).

Interesting premise, but I think Chell's words o' wisdom are more realistic.  The internet offers a rather diverse slice of human psychology and some folks interpret just about anything as an attack.  Hence my mention of gratification motives earlier.  You just never know.

BTW, do these waders make me look fat?ūüėĮ

 

2 hours ago, mikechell said:

There's an old adage to online communication.  (Yes, it's been around long enough to have "old" adages)  When reading a post, "If it can be taken as an insult or a joke, take it as a joke."

On the other hand, when YOU type something, read it.  Just believe that when other people read it, "If can be taken as an insult or a joke, they'll take it as an insult." and DON'T hit send.

Love the first part, good life strategy in general.  Works for me.

As for the second postulate, it can be near impossible to know how another person is going to interpret or what they may read into something we post.  Sometimes you don't even know if they're really asking what they appear to be asking.

Either way, some folks are probably gonna need to grow a thicker skin if they're feeling offended a bit too often.  It's flyfishing, it has it's share of historical accuracy watchdogs, and many of our most precious and "original" ideas ain't always that original.  Often, it really is just another wooly bugger.  Other times, seemingly minor details can be huge digressions in some named, famed,  and described recipes with folks taking efforts to correct and inform.

Regardless of any intent, I think it naturally ends up being the responsibility of the participants not to feel butthurt.

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2 hours ago, Poopdeck said:

So basically, the only response to a fly picture, unless a specific request for comment is present, is, "beautiful fly, great job."

Just between you and me, I used to partake of a forum like that .  I asked, but isn't anyone going to ask if the person has plans to paint/finish it?? 

I read all of the comments posted here by everyone, so please don't take any of my comments as an offensive action.  I'm reminded of the idea that you can't legislate morality. This place is like "Eden" compared to some newsgroups I have participated in where things really got "intense"..and this is putting it nicely (they have what are commonly called "trolls"). I'm not sure I've ever seen a foul word in print here--except maybe fowl.

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6 minutes ago, niveker said:

You highlight right there the problem of being overly sensitive to criticism and therefore, trying to turn the forum into a safe space by controlling how the criticism is perceived by the person being critiqued, whether the criticism is  intentional or inadvertent, meant positively or perceived to be negative.    

No one is trying to turn the forum into a safe space. All Mark did was put up some guidelines, which for the most part have been in effect for 18 yrs now but we just never had them in written word. There really is nothing new going into effect. It's the same as always been, just now we have a pinned post as a reminder.

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9 hours ago, Steeldrifter said:

No one is trying to turn the forum into a safe space. All Mark did was put up some guidelines, which for the most part have been in effect for 18 yrs now but we just never had them in written word. There really is nothing new going into effect. It's the same as always been, just now we have a pinned post as a reminder.

Sweeeeeeet! Time to replace my wheel bearings and maybe tie a fly if I don't have to much grease under my nails. 

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