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imaxfli78

Streamer/wooly bugger rides......

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I tie wooly buggers with barbell eyes on top of the hook and they ride point up like I want on these. If you tie a wooly bugger/streamer with a bead head or bullet head, or weight the hook with lead, will they ride point down in the water/OR, what does one need to do to insure this......

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they need to be tied very sparsely to ensure they will ride hook point down.    The mass of the hook bend/point must be enough to overcome the torsion forces along the axis of the hook shank.  Add a leader and tippet, and a rather heavy "radial" dressing surrounding the axis of the shank, and you have a lot of variables.    Some of which will certainly overcome the mass of the hook bend.    I've not personally ever experienced it to be a problem with woolly buggers. With streamers, if they are tied correctly, the "buoyancy" of wing material (even if it doesn't float) adds to the effect of the mass of the hook bend- helping the situation.    There are a ton of variables  and the fly fishing world is not like gear fishing-  I've had so many fish caught on rather heavy Clouser Deep Minnows which I know without any doubt are swimming correctly (hook point up) yet they are hooked in the bottom jaw.   There are a lot of forces at work.      Woolly buggers,  you could try an Up-Eye hook if you can find any.    If you fish woolly buggers in any kind of current and turbulence you'll see them roll.    Pretty hard to get away from with a fly tied "in the round".     WB have to be one of my favorite fly styles and I have never felt I missed a fish because the hook was up, down, or sideways.   

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5 hours ago, imaxfli78 said:

 If you tie a wooly bugger/streamer with a bead head or bullet head, or weight the hook with lead, will they ride point down in the water/OR, what does one need to do to insure this......

Not entirely certain what you are wanting to ensure, are you wanting to ride hook up or hook down with the bullet/bead version?  If wanting to ride hook up like the barbell eyes, the easiest way is to do a pullback belly and form a keel to keep proper orientation.  Below is an older experimental “bullet” craw which is basically a winged synth-bugger, but even with the wing it still requires the keel to ride only hook up with any consistency.

belly.JPG.81ad5a4874d09a9b0b18bdf2015a849b.JPG

frontbelly.JPG.36d267f3932cacba103784b59bb02546.JPG

If you want hook DOWN on bead/bullethead, use straight-eye hook (slightly oversized with heavy bend) and trim a bit of material on the keel side of the body.  IOW, create the opposite keel of what you see in the above pictures.  You can do pullback bellies for downriding keels, but they are kinda tough with the hook point in the way.  Trimming is easier.  With any kind of heavy dubs or palmered materials, you almost always have to take bold measures to control how the fly rides underwater.  It'll look a bit different from what you envision, but it'll ride the way you wish every time.

Do note that many while many apparent hook down trout nymphs have a huge steel to material ratio, some of those can even flip hook up in actual fishing quite often just by the wing case + belly legs creating a keel effect.  

 

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I want to "KNOW" which way its gonna ride based on weighting/wing etc etc....I know wooly buggers ride point up with a barbell eye tied on top of hook. Hook weighted turkey winged Muddlers I tied always rode hook down...which way does a Bead-head wooly bugger ride???

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Just now, imaxfli78 said:

I want to "KNOW" which way its gonna ride based on weighting/wing etc etc....I know wooly buggers ride point up with a barbell eye tied on top of hook. Hook weighted turkey winged sculpins I tied always road hook down...which way does a Bead-head wooly bugger ride???

hook point down for the most part.

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7 hours ago, imaxfli78 said:

...which way does a Bead-head wooly bugger ride???

Whichever way you want!😉

However, I would agree with Brian Myers on the hook down most part claim.  Reason we elaborate on this issue a bit is because it’s not 100% of the time due to variability in tying and hook choice.  Many folks on FFing forums have issues with buggers and even Clousers not riding the way they desire.

If you have trouble, just explore the ideas above and correct the issue to your liking.  One thing that applies to all orientation aspects is to use the lightest tippet you can get away with so it doesn’t interfere with the natural orientation of your fly underwater.

If you want more specific information, it never hurts to state hook style/size (it really helps).

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For me it's all about the materials you're using - along with all the other variables of course.. The following pattern is my version of the Crystal Schminnow - and although it's a saltwater pattern I wouldn't hesitate to fish it in freshwater areas if it was the same size as small fry and other forage species of similar size were in abundance wherever I was... A single look will show it's very much a wooly bugger in ancestry....

4SSXs4c.jpg

I tie these as small as a #6 and as large as a #1 - all on Mustad 34007 stainless hooks.  The size we use the most is a #4 and it's used primarily for small tarpon although it works well on snook and other species... The only element needed for it to succeed is lots of small forage along the jungle shorelines where we fish in the saltwater Everglades.  You'll note that I set it up with a wire weedguard - but in places where it's not needed just do without it.   This bug, whether with almost weight-less plastic eyes,  the beadchain eyes shown , or even occasionally very small lead eyes.... always rides hookpoint down... 

 

One of the things about fishing backcountry areas (where freshwater is descending into the salt...) is that in winter many saltwater species, snook, tarpon, redfish, etc.  move from pure salt up into brackish areas and finally all the way up into freshwater where they mingle with largemouth bass, oscars (cichlids), and gar fish.  It makes tossing small flies at cover pretty exciting at times since you just won't know what's bitten until you hook up... 

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On 9/30/2020 at 9:25 AM, imaxfli78 said:

I want to "KNOW" which way its gonna ride based on weighting/wing etc etc....I know wooly buggers ride point up with a barbell eye tied on top of hook. Hook weighted turkey winged Muddlers I tied always rode hook down...which way does a Bead-head wooly bugger ride???

Anyway it wants.bn 

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On 9/30/2020 at 10:25 AM, imaxfli78 said:

I want to "KNOW" which way its gonna ride based on weighting/wing etc etc...

Then tie them and go fish them and watch them.  Tie your flies and go get real world experience with them.      

Change one variable- tippet, weight, hackle density, hook style, water condition, tail fullness, body material, leader length, on and on and on, at a time and watch what the fly does.  Woolly buggers don't have a "wing" and are tied with a mostly equal density and amount of materials 360 degrees around the axis of the hook.   The only way to "KNOW" how the flies YOU tie are going to perform is to tie them and go fish them.    I could give you one bugger that I tied and I KNOW will ride hook point down, on my line/leader/water conditions, and you could take it and fish it with different variables and have different results.    There are very few large-scale absolutes in fly fishing.   In my opinion you are overthinking this and stressing about a variable that doesn't mean much in the real world.   In my experience catching a lot of fish with woollys, it doesn't matter much where the hook bend is at any given moment, and no matter how it is tied you are going to catch fish hooked in the top, bottom, and side of the mouth with all the other variables being constant.  

 

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Well said...and just to keep it interesting I know one local angler down here in paradise that swears by olive Wooly Buggers for small tarpon and oscars in our local fresh to brackish waters.... and all of them have very light (to me anyway) freshwater hooks... 

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One way to know is to weight the body with a strip of lead -- flat or round -- only on top of or under the hook shank.  The fly will fish deeper in fast water w/o the jigging effect of the weighted nose versions.

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Flies tied "in the round" appear the same either way, too the fish.  Now whether hook up or down hooks better?

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