Fly line advice

[mikechell 0]

Silver ... are trout constantly in motion in still water?  Are they like some salt water fish that constantly move so water can flow through their gills?

I'm familiar with the sunfish and bass species, which will wait in place and the charge, or more likely ease up to a fly.  There's no intercepting or predicting it's direction, since they're usually sitting still, waiting for something to come within range.  So, the fish do come to the fly, but you have to put it in that strike zone to get their interest.

[knotjoe 0]

Mike, I'm sure Silver will explain, but trout needn't swim to breathe.

As for the bluegills, quite common for offshore gravel pit 'gills to do what the aforementioned trout do at the surface.  They'll cruise just under the surface for long runs picking off surface hatches near every evening in warmer seasons.  Midges mostly, but anything hatching and rising or landing gets attention.  I rarely try to guess direction although sometimes they will swim near enough the surface to leave a pressure bulge.  An obnoxious rip of a small popper or splat bugging techniques usually get a quick & curious turnaround take if landing behind them.  Not very selective.

The double haul and long shooting casts are essential here, I don't mind spending up on lines which behave themselves a bit better for the task.  

I don't see this behavior much in ponds, but deep/clear gravel pits always seem to have it with the larger bluegills.  Rarely crappies (IME) and only the smaller bass do it here, it's mainly a 'gill thing and typically the larger ones.

[dflanagan 0]

I’m still a trout newb and am fishing for stockers in small ponds so take this for what it’s worth...

The trout here seem to be grazers. Always moving, mostly picking through the submerged vegetation. At times it seems like they’re doing laps around the ponds. Bites will be really frequent in one spot for 10 or 15 minutes and then they’ll shut down. People on the other side start catching then. Another half hour or so and the bite is back on. 

[mikemac1 0]

I was digging through some old video and remembered that I'd put this together about 5 years ago.  According to Google Earth the river is ~75' wide through most of this pool.  The deepest portion of the run lies within a few feet of the far bank.  The best fish are usually taken when I can get the streamer to tickle the bank and slide into water right at the bank.  Takes usually happen within a few seconds after that.  When there is any kind of hatch on, most rising fish are hugging the bank.  The ability to make a 75' cast with the 150 grain sink tip is essential.  Of course you can shorten the needed cast by wading into to river, but not by much.

Bounty at Twin Post Pool

[SilverCreek 0]

Hi Mike,

As knotjoe said trout do not need to swim to "breathe".

When we catch trout in rivers after a long fight, the recommendation is to release them in quiet water. You will then observe that they do not swim. They will stay in that quiet water, moving their gill plates to pull oxygenated water past their gills to replenish the myoglobin (a type of hemoglobin that stores oxygen) in their muscles.

Also, nice video mikemac.

[JSzymczyk 0]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:29 PM, mikemac1 said:

Not accurate:  SA has three Double Taper lines on their website, RIO has 3, Orvis (made by SA) has two, Cortland has two as well as AirFlo.  All can be bought directly from their website.  I use 3 and 4 weight DT lines on my small reels used for my glass rods.  A good DT line cut in half  is great value. Couldn’t be easier.

"nearly difficult to find" at a reasonable price from a retailer.    I have a Cabela's DT F 6 on my old reel to use with my Dad's 1950's Phillipson glass rod.   It was rated HDH so it may be overlined just a bit.  When I bought it a couple years ago,  I had it on irrefutable authority that Cabela's prestige and prestige plus lines were SA lines with a Cabela's logo on the box.   God knows what they are now that most of the product line has gone to crap after the BPS merger.   I digress-  yes if you really really want a DT you might be able to find it in stock if you are willing to pay.   The marketing wonks need to make every weekend hero think he or she NEEDS a WF for the vanishingly small chance they may be able to punch out a cast into the running line.  

[JSzymczyk 0]

On 11/25/2020 at 10:38 PM, mikechell said:

Silver ... are trout constantly in motion in still water?  Are they like some salt water fish that constantly move so water can flow through their gills?

 

Granted the question was not asked of me-  but I fish a couple nearby lakes now for trout, and I have fished many lakes and ponds for trout from Maine to Nevada.   I'll add what I've seen.   In my experience, and that is all it is, not a statement based on any research,  trout in lakes seem to roam and move constantly unless they are relating to structure like weeds which hold food--  scud, damselfly nymphs, etc.    One lake I have fished for the last 8 or 9 years here, Little Buffalo State Park,  is fairly typical in that the trout seem to key on chironomids in open water most of the time.  Summertime, they go deep and find a tolerable mix of oxygen, temperature, and food.  When the water is cold in spring and fall,  and winter until ice,  they roam all over the open water.  I've caught them on the surface in the middle of the lake in 30 ft of water,  when the water temp was in the 30s by watching for disturbances... they roam around in loose pods of fish, not "schools" but groups.  In another lake,  Pine Grove Furnace State Park,  the lake is spring fed and cold all year,  with heavy weed growth.   Part of the lake is deeper with less weeds.  Trout will be anywhere and everywhere.  Sometimes right in the weeds like bass and panfish, probably eating nymphs and scuds.   They don't NEED to keep moving,  but if they have open water with food and comfortable temps/oxygen, they WILL keep moving.  

[JSzymczyk 0]

On 11/25/2020 at 6:03 PM, SilverCreek said:

In other words, if you one person can cast 40 feet and another 50 feet, the 50 foot caster can reach 57% more area which is 57% more fish.

by your own words,  it's not 57% more fish if the fish aren't there...   Yes, philosophically I agree--  in a static environment, the "further" one can cast, the more fish are likely to see the fly.   Considering the billion or so variables present at the moment of every presentation,  putting numbers to fly fishing success measured by target species landed, is like saying if my fingers are longer than average,  I like red cars.  

 

 

[tidewaterfly 0]

Some of the lines I have are getting old now, so may not be even still made. I've done fine with most any WF line I've used, and like some have said, I use a floating line most of the time.  

I can't always cast an entire line, but have no issue getting over 70' with most weights & rods/lines I have, but don't fish at that distance too often. I agree that being capable of making a long cast is an advantage, but I prefer to make shorter accurate casts, and fishing from a boat makes that possible. I fish a big lake now, Santee Cooper, so for bass & Stripers, and there's little need to constantly make long distance casts. Besides so far a lot of fishing has been around the cypress tree's and long distance casting isn't needed. 

As far as lines, I've purchased some of the various specialty lines, sold with names such as Tarpon Taper, or Salmon/Steelhead, and mostly SA, Cortland and Orvis brands. For my fishing, I see little difference even though the specs show some difference in the design of the taper. IMO, that's all well & good for marketing, but unless every fly you cast is the same in size, weight, and wind resistance, by the marketing claims, you should be changing lines every time you change flies if there's any appreciable difference in the flies.  No way I'll be doing that as I toss some big flies, and if I need to go smaller, I'll switch to a lighter setup. 

I also buy lines that may be last years since they're often discounted. and as I mentioned, some of my lines are now getting old, in the 10-15 year old range, so I'll be replacing some of them soon. I did recently buy a line sold by & under the brand name of Irideus in CA. They sell them for Salmon/Steelhead & Trout. Most likely they're being made in China, but so far I'm pleased with them. I also picked up a  Rio General Saltwater line for my 10 wt. and expect it will do what I need although I haven't even put in on a reel yet. 

I don't think I've ever paid more than $40 for a fly line either, and plan to keep it that way. 

 

[SilverCreek 0]

3 hours ago, JSzymczyk said:

by your own words,  it's not 57% more fish if the fish aren't there...   Yes, philosophically I agree--  in a static environment, the "further" one can cast, the more fish are likely to see the fly.   Considering the billion or so variables present at the moment of every presentation,  putting numbers to fly fishing success measured by target species landed, is like saying if my fingers are longer than average,  I like red cars.  

 

 

Huh???

http://nizkor.com/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Red-Herring.html

http://nizkor.com/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

"A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. "

 

What I said was that the farther you can cast, the more fish you can reach. "it's not 57% more fish if the fish aren't there"

What you do are not considering is the law of averages. Statiscally, when you cover 57% more area, there will be times that there WILL be less than 57% more fish BUT there this will be balanced by the time that there are MORE that 57% more fish. So there is correlation between the area you can cover and the number of fish you can reach. Do it enough and it will "average" 57% more fish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size_determination

This is the result of the Central Limit Theorem.

https://www.britannica.com/science/central-limit-theorem

[knotjoe 0]

On 11/22/2020 at 2:28 PM, mikemac1 said:

 The delta in $$ between a cheap low-end line and the best high-end lines IMHO doesn’t  warrant skimping on fly line.  

I completely agree with the above assertion.  Recreational C&R fishing in general is akin to grocery shopping where at the point of check-out you go back,  put all the items back on the shelves, and joyously drive home with fond memories and no groceries.

It's hard for me to make arguments for bargain shopping on these matters, especially with minor differences in price and the relatively long life of the product.

On 11/22/2020 at 8:19 PM, JSzymczyk said:

  It's nearly difficult to find anything but a WF line these days.... It is equally as difficult to find a fly fisherman who can consistently cast into the running line of a WF.....   yes fly fishermen are suckers who are, more often than not, people with egos and wallets which are larger than their skill set.  

Just for clarity, when you speak of running line, do you really mean the running line section of flyline or are you conflating that with backing?  Casting into the actual running line is not rare for flyfishers of even a moderate skill level.  Jerkin' on the backing knot, however, is a much smaller subgroup of casters.  

[vicrider 0]

I always wonder about the myth that a DT line will roll cast better than a WF. Don't know how far you're roll casting but if we consider a 9' leader and 35' of taper than you'd have to roll cast more than 45' of line before there is a difference in the line for roll casting. The first 35' of WF is the same as the first 35' of DT unless you're getting into the specialty lines of today. I agree that lines have priced themselves out of my market for the most part but there is a board I'm on with a Classified where I can find lines of any type or style for half the original cost and they're often brand new or very lightly fished. 

The one thing I am going to be watching for or might even pop the big bucks for is one of the new ultra-slick lines. I do know some of my older lines tend to drag a big going through the guides and it's a combo of old style lines well worn and grass cast. These new slick lines might be nice to slide out on the forward cast with no guide noise. My own favorite rods have single foot ceramic or sic guides versus "fly rod guides" and it make a real different in casting you wouldn't realize unless you actually tried them.

ps...I knew fly lines had gone over the edge when they came out with specific bluegill and carp lines.

[Bimini15 0]

Making my Christmas list, I found this line online, Rio fathom, which has an S2 line, S4 belly and intermediate tip.

For someone who does not fish sinking lines, this is intriguing. 
Anyone ever tried it or something similar?

[SilverCreek 0]

9 hours ago, Bimini15 said:

Making my Christmas list, I found this line online, Rio fathom, which has an S2 line, S4 belly and intermediate tip.

For someone who does not fish sinking lines, this is intriguing. 
Anyone ever tried it or something similar?

I think you mean the Rio Fanthom Clean Sweep sinking line rather than the Rio Fanthom which is a single density line.

https://www.flyfisherman.com/editorial/rio-fathom-cleansweep-sinking-lines/369579

I have not tried them but it is an interesting concept. Like you, I wonder if or will catch more fish in real life than a plain sinking line,

[Sandan 0]

@Bimini15 @SilverCreek This might be interesting

 

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