Some things I have learned

[DarrellP 0]

I have been tying flies off and on for a good part of 20 years.  I have had some good teachers, good books, and I have learned a lot of things through trial and error.  I have learned quite a lot from other forum members.  I would like to encourage others to chime in with their own observations. Mine, in no particular order:

1.  A small clean head is the sign of a professional.

2.  Learning to whip finish by hand was a game changer.

3.  If a step looks wrong, unwrap it and do over.  Always!

4.  Use ceramic bobbins and sharp scissors.  You need a reliable vise.

5.  A pinch wrap is probably the most important skill you will learn.

6.  You don't get faster by moving faster.  You get faster by eliminating pauses and knowing where stuff is.  

7.  Pre-sorting, measuring and working in batches helps a lot in tying faster and more consistently.

8.  Proportion, based on the hook as a measuring guide, is how you get correct, consistent flies.

9.  Compare your fly to the picture you are trying to emulate..

10.  Crappy materials = crappy flies.

11.  Sparse flies may not look as good to you, but they catch more fish.

12.  Use the smallest threads you can get by with.  Use the same brand so that you learn how strong it is and how much strength it takes to break it.

13.  If you can tie it on a size 12, you can go down to smaller sizes.  Same basic skills.  What you can do on a 10 or larger, may not "miniaturize".  A 12 requires the same "small fly skills" as a 14-20, IMHO.  Big flies require different skills, not less skills.

14.  Davie McPhail is not a normal human.  Expecting to tie like him is like expecting to pitch like Clayton Kershaw.  But you will improve with good instruction and practice.

15.  Simple flies are elegant and they work.  I.e., Clouser Minnows, Woolly Buggers, Bob's Bangers, PT nymphs, Zebra Midges, Klinkenhammer Specials, Partridge and Orange, and on and on.  But they can be deceptive with a lot of subtle differences to get right.  I thought I had a Clouser Minnow down pat until I saw Bob Clouser tie one and heard him explain each step.

Fly tying is like sex--you don't have to be good at it to enjoy it, but you should want to get better at it!

 

 

[niveker 0]

I've got @ 1/3 your years of experience, but I'd re-iterate some of your pints and add to them.  

1. Thread control and a pinch wrap are two of the most important skills to master.

2. Don't worry about getting faster.  Concentrate on getting better, faster will follow.  

3. Knowing how materials are going to react/interact in/on the water is at least, if not more important, than how it looks on the vise.   

4. Don't worry about getting every every new material that hits the store shelves.  Learn to know what qualities a material should have for it's purpose, and work with what you have.  

5. When I'm browsing in a fly shop or online, ask like to ask myself: How in the world did those old fly tiers tie such simple, beautiful, and effective flies without designed fly tying thread, a rotating vise, ceramic bobbins, genetic hackle, super head glue cement UV resin, and synthetic material?

 

[Philly 0]

I've been doing it for 30 years.  I've been known to tie in public.  I also have other bad habits.  Let's check off where I'm at on this list.

1.  A small clean head is the sign of a professional. ✓  I'm not a professional.  Most of the time on small flies.  

2.  Learning to whip finish by hand was a game changer.  Still haven't learned to use the tool, let alone whip finish by hand.

3.  If a step looks wrong, unwrap it and do over.  Always! ✓  Most of the time.  Sometimes I don't notice till I'm finish the fly.  Razor time.

4.  Use ceramic bobbins and sharp scissors.  You need a reliable vise. ✓

5.  A pinch wrap is probably the most important skill you will learn.  Missed this one in the tying classes I've taken

6.  You don't get faster by moving faster.  You get faster by eliminating pauses and knowing where stuff is.  I like to pause, and the stuff is never where I put it.

7.  Pre-sorting, measuring and working in batches helps a lot in tying faster and more consistently. ✓

8.  Proportion, based on the hook as a measuring guide, is how you get correct, consistent flies. ✓

9.  Compare your fly to the picture you are trying to emulate.. Sometimes 

10.  Crappy materials = crappy flies. ✓

11.  Sparse flies may not look as good to you, but they catch more fish.✓ Not sure they catch more fish

12.  Use the smallest threads you can get by with.  Use the same brand so that you learn how strong it is and how much strength it takes to break it.✓ 

13.  If you can tie it on a size 12, you can go down to smaller sizes.  Same basic skills.  What you can do on a 10 or larger, may not "miniaturize".  A 12 requires the same "small fly skills" as a 14-20, IMHO.  Big flies require different skills, not less skills.  Not sure I agree with this

14.  Davie McPhail is not a normal human.  Expecting to tie like him is like expecting to pitch like Clayton Kershaw.  But you will improve with good instruction and practice.   ✓   I agree with the last sentence.   I have no idea who Clayton Kershaw is and Davie McPhail is just a name associated with fly tying.

15.  Simple flies are elegant and they work.  I.e., Clouser Minnows, Woolly Buggers, Bob's Bangers, PT nymphs, Zebra Midges, Klinkenhammer Specials, Partridge and Orange, and on and on.  But they can be deceptive with a lot of subtle differences to get right.  I thought I had a Clouser Minnow down pat until I saw Bob Clouser tie one and heard him explain each step. ✓   I had the same epiphany when Clouser did a presentation for a fly fishing club I belong to.  I brought a couple of my Clousers to show him.  He took one look at them and told me "Nice bucktail jigs".  He proceeded to show me how to tie a proper Clouser Minnow.  Most people when they tie the Clouser Minnow violate #11,  It is a sparse fly and most people use too much material when tying it.

 

[skeet3t 0]

Interesting thread here and lots of good advice listed by members. Been tying for abut 28 years and flinging fur and feathers for 56 years. It is hard to "read" the mind  of a fish, if they have one. I have caught fish on flies that duplicate a book's photos and caught fish on a fly that has been thoroughly chewed by several fish. I'm a bit of a non-conformist and use my imagination to tie plus whatever I have on hand. My boxes have store-bought materials plus I improvise with other things as feathers I find in the yard, craft items, etc. I have three tying books but only tie about 6-8 patterns for fishing East Tennessee, whether warm water or cold water species.

[flytire 0]

9 hours ago, DarrellP said:

I have been tying flies off and on for a good part of 20 years.  I have had some good teachers, good books, and I have learned a lot of things through trial and error.  I have learned quite a lot from other forum members.  I would like to encourage others to chime in with their own observations. Mine, in no particular order:

1.  A small clean head is the sign of a professional. 40+ years tying and i'm not a professional but i do work on small heads

2.  Learning to whip finish by hand was a game changer. i cant do either one and dont even bother trying to learn now, so i use half hitches

3.  If a step looks wrong, unwrap it and do over.  Always! yup always! experience tyers will notice this but not necessarily a new tyer

4.  Use ceramic bobbins and sharp scissors.  yes You need a reliable vise. yes again

5.  A pinch wrap is probably the most important skill you will learn. depends on what your tying

6.  You don't get faster by moving faster.  You get faster by eliminating pauses and knowing where stuff is. i tie for quality not speed. i do pause when tying when i feel by back beginning to ache or a bathroom break. speed tying can lead to mistakes

7.  Pre-sorting, measuring and working in batches helps a lot in tying faster and more consistently. having materials on hand is good. speed tying can lead to mistakes

8.  Proportion, based on the hook as a measuring guide, is how you get correct, consistent flies. yes the hook has all on the measurements you need for proportions

9.  Compare your fly to the picture you are trying to emulate.. i agree

10.  Crappy materials = crappy flies. sometimes. i think a good tyer can make crappy materials look good

11.  Sparse flies may not look as good to you, but they catch more fish. sparse flies do work but catch more fish? 

12.  Use the smallest threads you can get by with.  Use the same brand so that you learn how strong it is and how much strength it takes to break it. agree

13.  If you can tie it on a size 12, you can go down to smaller sizes.  Same basic skills.  What you can do on a 10 or larger, may not "miniaturize".  A 12 requires the same "small fly skills" as a 14-20, IMHO.  Big flies require different skills, not less skills. tie flies in larger sizes and get them right. then progress to smaller sizes. rinse and repeat

14.  Davie McPhail is not a normal human.  he is a normal human but with years of experience Expecting to tie like him is like expecting to pitch like Clayton Kershaw.  i'm way over the hill to do any type of pitching But you will improve with good instruction and practice. Practice, practice, practice

15.  Simple flies are elegant and they work.  I.e., Clouser Minnows, Woolly Buggers, Bob's Bangers, PT nymphs, Zebra Midges, Klinkenhammer Specials, Partridge and Orange, and on and on.  But they can be deceptive with a lot of subtle differences to get right.  I thought I had a Clouser Minnow down pat until I saw Bob Clouser tie one and heard him explain each step. again, simple flies do work

Fly tying is like sex--you don't have to be good at it to enjoy it, but you should want to get better at it! not at my age 😀

 

 

[cphubert 0]

10 hours ago, DarrellP said:

1.  A small clean head is the sign of a professional.      - yes, always trying to improve and be consistent

2.  Learning to whip finish by hand was a game changer.     - while I can whip by hand I preferer to use a tool for more consistent results  

3.  If a step looks wrong, unwrap it and do over.  Always!   - yes practice steps until you can develop desired technique 

4.  Use ceramic bobbins and sharp scissors.  You need a reliable vise.  - I use old S&M metal tube bobbins have ceramic always go back to S&M, sharp scissors & comfortable vise 

5.  A pinch wrap is probably the most important skill you will learn.   -thread control (flattening or twisting, torque, & tightness)  & material placement

6.  You don't get faster by moving faster.  You get faster by eliminating pauses and knowing where stuff is.   - yes, consistency with proper technique and proportions, better to tie 1 well tied fly vs 20 marginal flies per hour. you should be your own worst critic. speed will follow and if it does not you still have better flies.

7.  Pre-sorting, measuring and working in batches helps a lot in tying faster and more consistently.  - yes, staging material & tying in sequential steps

8.  Proportion, based on the hook as a measuring guide, is how you get correct, consistent flies.  -yes, and take notes of changes if intentional for your pattern consistency 

9.  Compare your fly to the picture you are trying to emulate..  -yes or what you are trying to accomplish with a variation or new pattern

10.  Crappy materials = crappy flies.  - work with what you have or substitute and take notes for future use, some crappy materials work better than expected

11.  Sparse flies may not look as good to you, but they catch more fish.  -sparse looks better to me than overdressed, especially hair. 50/50 on the fish 

12.  Use the smallest threads you can get by with.  Use the same brand so that you learn how strong it is and how much strength it takes to break it.  -  yes find your comfort zone

13.  If you can tie it on a size 12, you can go down to smaller sizes.  Same basic skills.  What you can do on a 10 or larger, may not "miniaturize".  A 12 requires the same "small fly skills" as a 14-20, IMHO.  Big flies require different skills, not less skills.  -yes and material considerations for proper proportions. 

14.  Davie McPhail is not a normal human.  Expecting to tie like him is like expecting to pitch like Clayton Kershaw.  But you will improve with good instruction and practice.  - many good tiers, watch and learn from everyone that is willing to share. Practice technique and commit to tie more often and back up or start over until you are satisfied with the fly.

15.  Simple flies are elegant and they work.  I.e., Clouser Minnows, Woolly Buggers, Bob's Bangers, PT nymphs, Zebra Midges, Klinkenhammer Specials, Partridge and Orange, and on and on.  But they can be deceptive with a lot of subtle differences to get right.  I thought I had a Clouser Minnow down pat until I saw Bob Clouser tie one and heard him explain each step.  - so what is wrong with a cphubert minnow if it meets my intended use?

Fly tying is like sex--you don't have to be good at it to enjoy it, but you should want to get better at it!  - tying -always room to improve or to experiment, sex not so safe today

Good talking points.

[Poopdeck 0]

I've been whip finishing (tying a real snell knot, not a quickie snell knot) since I was 8 and think the little tool to be the whip finish game changer. No more thread getting stuck on pieces of my fingers. 

speed and efficiency are overrated 

simple flies are good

not so simple flies are bad

fish are the only judge of proportions. 

When I die someone is getting a deal on fly fishing stuff. 

[Jaydub 0]

21 hours ago, DarrellP said:

I have been tying flies off and on for a good part of 20 years.  I have had some good teachers, good books, and I have learned a lot of things through trial and error.  I have learned quite a lot from other forum members.  I would like to encourage others to chime in with their own observations. Mine, in no particular order:

Over 40 years.

1.  A small clean head is the sign of a professional. A sloppy head makes the whole fly look bad. Sometimes a small head is not possible, but a clean one is.

2.  Learning to whip finish by hand was a game changer. A good skill to have, but 90% of the time a tool is as good or better.

3.  If a step looks wrong, unwrap it and do over.  Always! Sure

4.  Use ceramic bobbins and sharp scissors.  You need a reliable vise. Agree

5.  A pinch wrap is probably the most important skill you will learn. Important but I wouldn't say most important

6.  You don't get faster by moving faster.  You get faster by eliminating pauses and knowing where stuff is.  

7.  Pre-sorting, measuring and working in batches helps a lot in tying faster and more consistently. Efficiency, organization and tying the same pattern hundreds of times make you faster , if that is your goal.

8.  Proportion, based on the hook as a measuring guide, is how you get correct, consistent flies.Yes

9.  Compare your fly to the picture you are trying to emulate.. Yes

10.  Crappy materials = crappy flies. Yes

11.  Sparse flies may not look as good to you, but they catch more fish. I see a lot of overdressed flies. Sparse flies catch more fish, except when they don't.

12.  Use the smallest threads you can get by with.  Use the same brand so that you learn how strong it is and how much strength it takes to break it. Yes

13.  If you can tie it on a size 12, you can go down to smaller sizes.  Same basic skills.  What you can do on a 10 or larger, may not "miniaturize".  A 12 requires the same "small fly skills" as a 14-20, IMHO.  Big flies require different skills, not less skills. I don't think this is really true. There is a big difference between tying a size 12 and tying a size 20 well. On a size 20 every wrap matters. I do think beginners should start with a larger size, hone their skills and work their way down.

14.  Davie McPhail is not a normal human.  Expecting to tie like him is like expecting to pitch like Clayton Kershaw.  But you will improve with good instruction and practice. I can probably tie like Kershaw. I haven't seen Davie pitch.

15.  Simple flies are elegant and they work.  I.e., Clouser Minnows, Woolly Buggers, Bob's Bangers, PT nymphs, Zebra Midges, Klinkenhammer Specials, Partridge and Orange, and on and on.  But they can be deceptive with a lot of subtle differences to get right.  I thought I had a Clouser Minnow down pat until I saw Bob Clouser tie one and heard him explain each step. What was that quote flytire had in his signature?

Fly tying is like sex--you don't have to be good at it to enjoy it, but you should want to get better at it! I usually tie alone. Does that mean I am just .........

 

 

 

[DarrellP 0]

Disclaimer: I never said that I was a professional.  Heads are my biggest worry/ problem.  I am a slow tyer.  I started tying when I was 40, and now I can't see how bad my small flies look until I take photos! 

I appreciate you guys putting your thoughts down.  I hope more people will add to this thread.  Hoping this helps some new tiers.

[Mudfish620 0]

Love this list. Well said and Hail State!

 

[DarrellP 0]

11 hours ago, Mudfish620 said:

Love this list. Well said and Hail State!

 

Hail yeah!

[DarrellP 0]

I want to explain my thoughts on bigger flies requiring different skills.  Those skills include tying with Buck tail, spinning deer hair, using rubber legs, winding marabou, working with foam or balsa, placing eyes, composite loops, etc.  There are a lot of skills that are used for warm water, salt and Salmon/Steelhead  that small trout flies don't require.

[JSzymczyk 0]

On 1/21/2021 at 12:13 PM, DarrellP said:

I want to explain my thoughts on bigger flies requiring different skills.  Those skills include tying with Buck tail, spinning deer hair, using rubber legs, winding marabou, working with foam or balsa, placing eyes, composite loops, etc.  There are a lot of skills that are used for warm water, salt and Salmon/Steelhead  that small trout flies don't require.

Very true.   Over 40 years tying here.   "Speed" is not a valid goal.  Sparse flies catch fish but it all fish cared about was sparse, hardware lures wouldn't work at all.  

There is NOTHING new in fly tying or fly fishing.   If you have done it, someone else did it before you, decided it wasn't worth it and moved on.   Maybe they were wrong. 

 

[DarrellP 0]

Agee.  However, speed is a goal for me.  I tie when I have time and need to make it count.  

 

While techniques are not new, they are new to me.

[tidewaterfly 0]

I'm approaching 56 years of tying, and have tied commercially for over 20 years. Speed, is relative. It's mostly about organization and reducing wasted effort, not about going faster. I tie many flies in an assembly line fashion, and organize and prepare before I start to tie. That takes time, but then the actual tying can be done more efficiently, and quickly.  I very much agree with Norm, that speed can lead to mistakes. The real trick is knowing & understanding the difference between speed and efficient. It's not about fast, it's about smooth, and reducing wasted time, which results in spending less time tying for the same numbers. 

Repetitious tying is not for everyone. Most tyers do it, but on a very limited basis. It's one thing to sit and tie a dozen flies, it's another to sit and tie 15 dozen of the same pattern & size. 

I also agree that "crappy" materials, is a matter of perspective too. I very much dislike when folks relate a material to poor quality, just because it doesn't meet their need for a specific type of tying. To them it may be poor, but may be great for another tyer and purpose.  Hackle is one of the materials that get these types of comments often. Not all hackle is or ever will be "dry fly quality", but not every  fly tied with hackle is a dry fly. It does a disservice to recommend dry fly hackle for all flies, when there is other hackle types readily available and use the "quality" as reason.  

I was just in this type of discussion, and the topic was very large streamers. At the present time, there are no great supplies of large, long, webby hackle. Strung 6"-7" saddle hackle is the best available, but even with a good source, not all are well suited for the purpose of tying large streamers. It was suggested in the discussion to look at what Whiting offers and again, it's not big enough. The saddles are long, and narrow. Some make great flatwing streamers, but the point again is not everyone ties the same types of flies, and one of the limiting factors is material that is suited for the purpose. That does not make it "poor" quality, just not suited for all purposes. Learn the difference and as Norm said, a good tyer can tie a nice fly with less than desirable materials. 

Bucktail is another that gets those remarks. Just because a bucktail doesn't have 6" hair, does not make it poor quality. I buy a lot of small and medium tails, and look for finer hair, because I tie more smaller flies that don't need long hair. For my purpose, the tails I get are perfect. It makes no sense, to buy a premium tail and pay $10 or more for it, and chop it down to tie a 3" long fly, because of someone else's perceived idea that long equates to "quality". To pass that type of ideology to a new tyer again does them a disservice. If your opinion and buying habits are to buy those big tails, great! Just don't tell a new tyer that smaller tails with shorter but finer hair equates to poor quality, IF, those smaller tails will serve a good purpose for that person. There's a big difference between "qualities" and "quality". 

This is often a difference between hobby tyers and commercial tyers. I can use what I get, even though I do prefer to pick materials when possible, I don't always have that luxury. I  will seek suppliers who are going to send good materials, but they don't sort & inspect every tail or every feather, and I understand that. I also understand that I can use "lesser" materials, with the better materials, to accomplish what I need, a good end result.  Again, the "trick" is knowing how to do that, and it's not by complaining about the materials. 

The last thing I'll add, is tie what you're not necessarily comfortable with, so you can improve. If you struggle with a technique, or use of a specific material, the only way to improve is to do it. At times, I have tied flies that were not even of the type that I may use to fish with. It was done mostly to try it, and to hopefully learn something. I think that the many flies that Norm posts is a great example to follow. Over the many years, his flies have been an inspiration, because they're varied in styles, patterns and types. I would guess that he doesn't fish them all, but many of his flies are display quality IMO, so there's value in tying them beyond fishing with them. Thank you Norm! .

I've been able to find uses for a lot of flies that I've tied, but not all. Just because a fly is intended for a specific fish species, doesn't mean it can't be used for others. There is likely not much that has not already been done, but if you keep an open mind and look beyond labels, the world opens up even more, Look at the possible use of the fly, it's potential, not just it's intended purpose and label. I'll often adapt/adopt to my own uses, and to me that's what tying is about.