Jump to content


 Welcome to FlyTyingForum.com


FlyTyingForum.com is the largest fly tying community in the world and we hope you take a moment to register for a free account and join this amazingly friendly and helpful group of anglers. FTF has over 12,000 registered members that have made over 300,000 posts and have uploaded over 6,000 patterns to our exclusive fly pattern database!

If you are an experienced fly tier or just starting out FTF is the perfect place to call home. Click Here To Register for a Free Account

Fly Pattern Database / Browse by Topics / Browse by Material / Fly Tying Bench Database / Fly Fishing & Tying Videos / FTFCurrent(NEW!)
Featured Products: Fly Tying Hooks / Fly Tying Scissors / Waterproof Fly Boxes
Photo

Sink Tip vs Full sinking


  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 Alex C.

Alex C.

    Bait Fisherman

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 0 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 02:25 PM

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each one?

#2 mcfly

mcfly

    ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 02:53 PM

I think of full sink for really deep water like lakes and such and sink tip for large pools or deep runs where a full sink would snag up. Where I fish its rare that I need a sinking line. I usually just add length to the leader and a little weight.
To avoid situations in which you might make mistakes may be the biggest mistake of all. - Peter McWilliams

#3 Alex C.

Alex C.

    Bait Fisherman

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 0 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:08 PM

So what depth does a sink tip start to have limitations?

#4 cornmuse

cornmuse

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 466 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:11 PM

Boy, oh boy. This is a big topic. Since I'm sitting at work in this miserable gray building on what certainly is the finest day so far of 2005, and I'm pissed off about it baby.gif crying.gif baby.gif , I'll write my thoughts instead of doing my work. That'll show 'em headbang.gif

First let's discuss the various sinking lines. There is more to this than sinking tip or full sinker. Under sinking tips you MUST break down the lines into sinking heads (24' or more of sinking head), sinking tips (10' to 15' of sink), mini-tips (typically 5 or 6' that sink). As I work through this I'll forget about ghost tips and slow sink tips as they are highly specialized. IMHO, all sinking tip lines should be of the fast sinking variety.

Under full sinking lines let's define the category as consisting of three or more sinking rates and either density compensated or not.

Sinking tips (all varieties) are best suited for moving water applications. The floating running line allows mending and makes line handling easier when you're not using a shooting basket (a necessity for full sinker use when wading). The full sinking head is an ideal beast for swinging large streamers across current and getting down as deep as possible. I like the Teeny lines but there are many varieties avaible from most manufacturers. These lines are typically rated in grain weight and will invariably overline a rod. 200 grains is about right for a fast 6 or 7 weight rod - and thats easily a full line weight over what is specified.

A full head can be a miserable thing to cast, but it will get down fast. No problems hitting bottom in 6 feet in a fast flow. Keep the leader short and you can do amazing things with a streamer. An important tool for any big river fly fisher. I also use my Teeny lines for high-stick nymph fishing in very deep runs. Using an 18" leader I can walk my fly along the bottom in 10' of water. This is a good technique under cold-water conditions.

The sink-tip is my go-to creek and river line. I fish a 6wt most often and a type 5
sinking rate. A 10' tip is a relative joy to cast (no hinging because you typically have lot's of overhang) and will get down just fine. On fast water (fast being relative, I'm in Ohio so my definition of fast is a far cry from an Oregon steelheader's idea of fast) I can effectively fish to 6' or so. Mending is easy and I get a good swing with streamers. This line is also a good high-sticking line for water up to about 6' - deeper if its really slow. I don't think any self-respecting smallmouth fisherman should leave home without a sink-tip.

Mini-tips are generally a nice diversion. They will get a fly a foot or two below the surface and IMO work best under warm water conditions in late summer when I want to quickly retrieve a fly under the surface. I'll also use a mini-tip with a Dahlberg diver for a great action. A cool tool to have, but entirely optional. I can't honestly say that there aren't any fish I've caught with a mini-tip that I would otherwise have missed with a different tool. You could easily substitute a sinking leader for a mini-tip and get the same results. The biggest drawback is that most tapered lines are tapered too much in the front to turn over a sinking leader - if you cut back 10" of your fly line you'll have a better match and eliminate a lot of hinging. I do this as a matter of course on all new bass bug lines.

Full sinking lines are difficult to control when wading. The running line sinks at your feet so you need a shooting basket. They work nicely from a boat, however. Sinking lines cast nicely - small diameter and all the same material means you get good line speed. No problems banging out 70 footers all day. A fast type 5 or 6 full sinker is a great lake line and works well on really large rivers from a boat. You can fish an insect imitation, crawl a crayfish or swim a streamer with equal aplomb. Very important tool for still water fly fishing.

A good lake technique is to use a floating fly with a full sinking line. The fly hovers over the bottom. I do this with Dahlberg divers (rabbit strip tail) for largemouth to great effect. You can also use a full sinker in shallow water with a floating fly - when retrieved the fly will dive all the way to the bottom and then slowly resurface upon the pause. Another good bass technique that I use with cork head sneaky pete flies. A sinking tip doesn't work as well for this kind of fishing because the tip will ride up on retrieve following the running line. You'll only fish the bottom for about 1/3 of your actual retrieve.

A slow sinking density compensated line like a type 2 or 3 is also a good stillwater tool. I use this with marabou baitfish patterns for fishing crappie, perch, carp and bass when they key on shad. If the school of shad is at 15' over 20' of water I can count down my fly and retrieve very slowly without the fly sinking or rising on retrieve. A killer technique when the conditions call for it.

There you have it. Sink tip for moving water, full sinkers for lakes. Long heads for big rivers and long casts over deep water, short tips for fishing creeks. Fast full sinkers for most stillwater applications, slow sinkers for more specialized work.

I've got to ignore some more work now devil.gif

Tight lines!

Joe C.
"Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit,
and resign yourself to the influences of each."
- Henry David Thoreau

Visit Fly Fish Ohio for great fly fishing and fly tying articles, the "Adventures in Fly Tying" monthly video podcast and the "Adventures in Fly Fishing" monthly audio podcast. The Midwest isn't a place you fly over to get to good fishing - it's right here in our own backyards.


Think globally - fish locally.

#5 Alex C.

Alex C.

    Bait Fisherman

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 0 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:23 PM

thanks cornmouse headbang.gif

#6 cornmuse

cornmuse

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 466 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:33 PM

QUOTE (skunked @ Mar 30 2005, 03:23 PM)
thanks cornmouse headbang.gif

Mouse? dunno.gif Man, that's MUSE - as in the daughters of Mnemosyne, the Greek Goddess of memory - the muses. Cornmuse - like a cereal! ive_been_ripped.gif There's no Disney characters here!!!

j_k.gif

Joe C.
"Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit,
and resign yourself to the influences of each."
- Henry David Thoreau

Visit Fly Fish Ohio for great fly fishing and fly tying articles, the "Adventures in Fly Tying" monthly video podcast and the "Adventures in Fly Fishing" monthly audio podcast. The Midwest isn't a place you fly over to get to good fishing - it's right here in our own backyards.


Think globally - fish locally.

#7 Alex C.

Alex C.

    Bait Fisherman

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 0 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:42 PM

sorry my bad laugh.gif So what sink rate would you reccomend for fishing lakes averaging 5-20 in depth, fishing crayfish type flies and streamers? What sink tip length would you reccomend for fishing michigan sized rivers?

#8 steeldrifter

steeldrifter

    When I grow up, I'm moving to Florida !!!

  • Admin
  • PipPipPip
  • 16,979 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:52 PM

Skunked What I use and would suggest for here in Michigan is a FS with about a 8 IPS rate. Then for the sink tip I'm guessing your wanting it for steelies so what I use is a Tenny T-200 line. Works perfect for me on the MI rivers.

mcfr.jpg
Owner- Steve Clark
Midwestcustomflyrods.com


Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doin, than a long life spent in a miserable way- Alan Watts
 
 
 


#9 steeldrifter

steeldrifter

    When I grow up, I'm moving to Florida !!!

  • Admin
  • PipPipPip
  • 16,979 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:53 PM

BTW Joe, or should I say Cornmouse tongue.gif .....That was a awesome description of lines! thumbsup.gif

mcfr.jpg
Owner- Steve Clark
Midwestcustomflyrods.com


Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doin, than a long life spent in a miserable way- Alan Watts
 
 
 


#10 Alex C.

Alex C.

    Bait Fisherman

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 0 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:55 PM

Thanks SD.

laugh.gif Even now when I look at your name CM cornmouse is what I see at first laugh.gif

I apologize if it sticks laugh.gif

#11 mcfly

mcfly

    ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 04:26 PM

I said all that, you have to read between the lines a bit. biggrin.gif cornmouse! tongue.gif
To avoid situations in which you might make mistakes may be the biggest mistake of all. - Peter McWilliams

#12 Joe Hard

Joe Hard

    Will Work For Bolgna

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 7,829 posts

Posted 30 March 2005 - 10:09 PM

QUOTE (cornmuse @ Mar 30 2005, 04:11 PM)
Boy, oh boy. This is a big topic. Since I'm sitting at work in this miserable gray building on what certainly is the finest day so far of 2005, and I'm pissed off about it baby.gif crying.gif baby.gif , I'll write my thoughts instead of doing my work. That'll show 'em headbang.gif


Dont blame you one little bit!!!
My Webpage - http://joehardflytying.4t.com/ (WARNING LOTS OF POP UPS)

QUOTE
This fella will be pleased with your work, if not hes damn nuts, and should be beat with a stick!! fly time


"All it takes is one fool to be standing arround doing something, for a bunch of other fools to join in"......a quote from an old Newfoundlander I met fishing in the pooring rain

#13 cornmuse

cornmuse

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 466 posts

Posted 31 March 2005 - 08:15 AM

QUOTE (skunked @ Mar 30 2005, 03:55 PM)
Thanks SD.

laugh.gif Even now when I look at your name CM cornmouse is what I see at first laugh.gif

I apologize if it sticks laugh.gif

Damn... laugh.gif Now I 've got to change my Avatar - anyone got a pic of a fishing mouse??? dry.gif

JC
"Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit,
and resign yourself to the influences of each."
- Henry David Thoreau

Visit Fly Fish Ohio for great fly fishing and fly tying articles, the "Adventures in Fly Tying" monthly video podcast and the "Adventures in Fly Fishing" monthly audio podcast. The Midwest isn't a place you fly over to get to good fishing - it's right here in our own backyards.


Think globally - fish locally.

#14 cornmuse

cornmuse

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 466 posts

Posted 31 March 2005 - 08:35 AM

QUOTE (skunked @ Mar 30 2005, 03:42 PM)
So what sink rate would you reccomend for fishing lakes averaging 5-20 in depth, fishing crayfish type flies and streamers? What sink tip length would you reccomend for fishing michigan sized rivers?

That is VERY dependent on line weight and fly size. Assuming a 6wt line I'd suggest a density compensated Type 4 or Type 5 for the lakes. If you fish a 7 or 8 you should opt for a Type 3 or 4. The heavier the line the faster the sink so a Type 3 8wt will sink at about the same rate as a Type 5 5wt. I suggest this for the stillwater applications because sinking speed isn't as important as the ability to maintain depth during the full length of the retrieve.

I've actually fished a break in 18 feet of water with an intermediate sinking line - it took 2 minutes to reach depth but it stayed right there during the length of the retrieve which was a very, very slow hand twist. The fish were suspended (striped bass on Cumberland Lake) about 10' deep and 8' over the bottom. That day I nailed 6 fish. The point of the story is that consistency in depth is more important than sink speed.

Now moving water is a different story. You don't have that much time before the fly is swept away from the presentation area so it needs to get down quickly. I concur that a 200 grain Teeny is a good choice. What I use is a 300 grain Teeny and I cut of 7' of the tip leaving a 17' sinking head that weighs 200 grains. Easier to cast for me and very, very effective in flowing water.

YMMV

Joe C.
"Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit,
and resign yourself to the influences of each."
- Henry David Thoreau

Visit Fly Fish Ohio for great fly fishing and fly tying articles, the "Adventures in Fly Tying" monthly video podcast and the "Adventures in Fly Fishing" monthly audio podcast. The Midwest isn't a place you fly over to get to good fishing - it's right here in our own backyards.


Think globally - fish locally.