Chris_NH 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 I find myself getting into the habit of opting for two 3 turn whip finishes vs one 5 turn whip finish plus head cement. Does anyone have any insight on the durability difference of the two? I don't like bulky heads, but the two 3 turn whip finishes aren't particularly bulky. I think it's a time saver over applying head cement, but I don't want to do it if it's not as durable. It's been a long time since I had a fly unravel, so maybe it doesn't matter... Heck, I've seen numerous youtube videos of some buy name Hans something who only ever does one 3 turn whip finish and calls it good. He comes across like he knows what he's doing... Thoughts? I'm probably overthinking something that's a non issue, but inquiring minds want to know... A second question - I also find myself, on flies with hackles protruding out the front of the fly (a pain getting a whip finish tool in there), doing a half hitch followed by a double half hitch (2 turns around the half hitch tool), followed by a triple half hitch if the head isn't getting too bulky, snugging it up and calling it good. Anyone know the durability of this method vs. a traditional 5 turn whip finish? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hatchet Jack 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 Regarding small to tiny flies - I do not have any great insight as to the durability difference of the two methods. However, I've found with the two 3-turn whip finish, if it begins to unravel, I can bin that fly for later repair and not have it completely unravel. Short sidetrip - an ongoing experiment of mine: right before I start my 1st & 2nd whip finish, I rub the thread with plain old beeswax. After the whips are done, I heat up my bodkin, stick the bodkin point into the hook eye, and let the heat conduction melt the beeswax in the thread wraps (this may take a few reapplications of heats, btw.) This is my 'head cement' and so far, so good. One can see the wax melt, then congeal upon cooling. Takes a bit more time, but the hook eye is certainly cleared for the tippet and the beeswax seems a reliable cement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikechell 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 I have never finished a fly with only whip finishes ... so I can't attest to the durability of those. I can, however, firmly state that NONE of the flies I've bought EVER lasted. I've always had those threads come unwrapped before any other part of the fly failed. But then, I haven't bought a fly in a decade or more, so I don't know what they're like today. ALL of my flies have been finished with a drop of fingernail polish ... I watch it soak into the threads, so I know it's going to keep them from unraveling. My go to fly ... the one that catches dozens of fish before I lose it or it just gets too chewed up ... ... is secured with fingernail polish. I've never had one come undone. The one I have tied on now ... tomorrow will be it's third trip and it's still holding together just fine. The last trip is the video I posted on the "Fish pictures" thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlatsRoamer 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 I use double 5 turn whip finish and so far so good Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vicrider 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 Hatchet Jack, Chris specifically states he is thinking in terms of time. Personally I don't feel a dab of cement takes much time at all but to each his own. As for your method Jack, I can see it working well to lock the head in. Most of the old timers use a lot of wax and some even say they never use cement but just was the thread the last few head wraps like you're doing. As for Hans, I've seen him using head cement in a lot of his videos and he is mainly demonstrating the process used in various patterns (the guy is a frigging genius at the vise) and not necessarily tying for the market. One of the older tiers doing videos (can't remember who) looks like he has a big wart on his finger. Had to watch a few times to realize he has a blob of wax right there on the back of a finger and uses it all the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hatchet Jack 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 Vic, I missed Chris' timesaver focus, thanks. One of the older tiers doing videos (can't remember who) looks like he has a big wart on his finger. Had to watch a few times to realize he has a blob of wax right there on the back of a finger and uses it all the time. LOL! I thought the same thing too until I saw him (Davie McPhail) rub the 'wart' on his tying thread. Tying wax is a help for keeping thread in place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Poopdeck 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 I think you are over thinking it. I don't even count the turns when I whip finish. I'm guessing that there is not much of a holding difference between 3 turns or 5 turns. I'd suggest that if two extra turns makes your heads to bulky then your using thread that is to thick for the size fly or you simply need to start your whip finish earlier in the final thread wrapping stage. I always use head cement except on very small flies where the drop of thread cement is bigger then the thread wraps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 hans who? i have watched all of hans weillenmans videos and have them downloaded on my computer and have never seen him use head cement on the flies he ties. a 3 turn whip finish is basically what he uses. if you pull the thread to just about its breaking strength you dont need head cement i'm lazy and could never get used to using a whip finish tool or even learning to tie one by hand. 3 tight half hitches is all that i use with a dab of head cement. never had a fly come apart in 35+ years of tying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vicrider 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 flytire, I'll bow to your video library. I watch so many vids of so many tiers, some very good, some very bad, just thought I remembered him doing a dab of cement. I do think that he is one of the top tiers doing videos along with a rare few others. Few of the top guys out there are very young though from what I've seen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlatsRoamer 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 The guy from intheriffle looks and sounds pretty young. Also Shawn for Mc.Fly Lures is pretty young and I think he is a great tier,person,and you tuber! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted June 2, 2016 ive been viewing some tying videos lately and have seen one tyer apply head cement to the thread prior to making the whip finish. good use of an older technique some tyers just swipe the thread with crazy glue then make a few wraps to complete the head. no knots basically if something works for YOU just continue doing it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vicrider 0 Report post Posted June 3, 2016 Flytire, that is one of the tricks I picked up from a couple of videos on putting some super glue on the thread in hard to reach spots. I use this but WITH a whip finish on a lot of small heads with a chance of messing up hackle or hair if you get too much cement on. I have also used this SA on the thread for a lot of parachute flies, sometimes with a whip finish, sometimes with just a few extra SA wraps and let set. I have come to believe my Krazy Glue locks threads down and hardens them into a solid mass better than any head cement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikechell 0 Report post Posted June 3, 2016 I've tried that ... putting CA or head cement on before the whip finish ... but I've had the thread stick while pulling the whip finish tight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris_NH 0 Report post Posted June 3, 2016 I think I misspoke about the guy's name on youtube. Just went to look and it's not the Hans from Dakota Anglers... I couldn't find the guy I was talking about just now, but he's an older guy, european accent, with a softer monotone voice on his voiceovers, who uses a minimalist approach to tying with the very precise/minimal use of thread turns throughout the whole fly. He's very talented. Going to bug me that I can't think of his name, but aging has it's consequences... lol I do a ton of tying, and lots of it is for other people. I know that applying head cement isn't a great big time drain, but if you tie a dozen flies and do it after each fly that's a lot of opening and closing the bottle, getting out the bodkin (the brush in sally hansen's is too big for smaller flies), etc. Either that or you stage all the flies on a foam cup rim and apply it all at once at the end, which is what I usually do... I'm just looking to improve efficiencies where I can. I guess the question boils down to do you think 2 whip finishes is as durable long term as one whip with head cement. Many times I've done what Davy Mcphail advocates and apply the cement just before the whip finish, and do like that, but it's no faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fishinguy 0 Report post Posted June 3, 2016 I guess the question boils down to do you think 2 whip finishes is as durable long term as one whip with head cement. I doubt it. Will it be good enough? Sure. But I think cement/ca/wax soaking in helps allot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
