Crazy Charlie Questions

[FlatsRoamer 0]

Hello, I am in the midst of tying flies for a diy trip to Grand Cayman and will be targeting bonefish and baby tarpon. I am about to purchase the materials needed for a crazy Charlie and was wondering if buck tail could substitute for calf tail? Any info is appreciated!

[Permitcapt 0]

Hello, I am in the midst of tying flies for a diy trip to Grand Cayman and will be targeting bonefish and baby tarpon. I am about to purchase the materials needed for a crazy Charlie and was wondering if buck tail could substitute for calf tail? Any info is appreciated!

Yup. You can use whatever you have. Just because Crazy Charlie is a famous pattern doesn't mean that it will outfish anything that doesn't look like it. The basic form can be used as a basic recipe, then let your creative juices flow. All kinds of flies will work on bones. The most important aspect is how they travel when stripped. If they travel in a straight line, and don't twist or roll, then they will catch bones. Keep them simple, light but able to sink, not too much flash, and not to bulky. Use simple colors such as, white, tan, soft pink, light olive, chartreuse. Make them with different weights. Sometimes you want no splash if you are casting to tailing fish in very skinny water, ut if you are fishing from a boat on high tide in 3 to 4 ft, then you need to have your fly sink to the bottom quickly or you,won't get a look.

 

Good luck, and let us know how you do.

[FlatsRoamer 0]

Thank you, I won't be on a boat at all , I'm going to be wading in very 1-3ft of water, but Cayman flats are mostly turtle grass meaning I can't let it sink too far, the learning curve will be a steep one! But that is something I embrace. And what size hooks do you recommend? The average bone their is 3-5 lbs

[Permitcapt 0]

Turtle grass makes for more difficult sighting. Wade slowly and constantly scan. Don't focus more than an instant on anything. Always continue to scan. Pivot your head as well as scan with your eyes. It gives you a larger cone-of-view.

 

As for hooks, you can get a multitude of answers on that one. I find that a #4 Partridge CS 52 is my favorite , but many others will do just fine. Gamagatsu SC15 is great also. Heck, I've caught many on cheap Mustads as well. Making a good presentation is what's important. Make sure your hooks ride up or you have a weed guard if they don't. Always have a sharp hook point.

[FlatsRoamer 0]

Do you know of a method to figure out if a fly rides hook up or down?

[tidewaterfly 0]

Great advice already given. Bucktail for flies like Crazy Charlies will be just as it is for Clouser Minnows. You won't want to use hair that flares too much. I prefer badger or American Opossum hair instead, as both are a finer hair. Fox tail or fur works well too, as long as you don't leave a lot of underfur in it.

 

The general rule of thumb with Bonefish flies is match the bottom color, light colors to be used over light sand bottoms, darker colors over darker bottoms.

 

Gotcha's are probably now a more popular style than the Charlies for many destinations, so that's also something to consider since they're often tied with craft furs instead of natural hair.

 

I've tied a lot of Bonefish flies for guides & folks making trips like you're making, and the hook sizes usually ranged from 8 on the small end to 2 on the larger end, but I have tied a few in size 1 & 1/0 for deep water Bones. 2, 4 & 6 was the most requested sizes.

 

I tied a lot on the older Mustad 34007 stainless hooks, which are a very shiny silver color, but now it seems a duller stainless or black nickel finish is more popular. Unfortunately, black nickel finish is not going to be as rust resistant as stainless. If you need to save money, tinned hooks work fine. You might consider VMC 9255 hooks, which have a dull gray color, and are both strong & sharp.

[Permitcapt 0]

Do you know of a method to figure out if a fly rides hook up or down?

Only one: try it. Easily done in any body of water from a bathtub or toilet, to a pond. Dumbbells on top of the hook shank tend to make it flip-over and ride point up, but it depends on what materials you tied on. Keep the dressing sparse and no problem. Also, if you use a buoyant wing material and have it angled-up over the hook point, then that will help keep the hook point up with less weight.

[utyer 0]

Just cast it into a swimming pool, you can then watch is sink. I test a lot of my flies in the pool. Most small patterns like the Crazy Charlie, and the Clouser Minnow will ride point up. The eyes on top of the shank coupled with the wing on the under side, will flip them over. Its all in the fly design. The wing acts like a para-sail to turn the fly, the eyes (even bead chain eyes,) are a counter weight to the wing.

 

Size 4 or even 6 are both good for bones.

[mikechell 0]

Just cast it into a swimming pool, you can then watch is sink. I test a lot of my flies in the pool.

 

If you use a public pool for this, be ready to run when they come after you. Hooking a swimmer might be fun for a minute, but for some reason, it gets the non-angling public all riled up.

I don't have access to a pool. Unless your water is totally muddy, you should be able to see the fly in the water, even if it's just for a few inches under the surface. Should give you a good idea of what it's doing as it sinks.

[Capt Bob LeMay 0]

Take a glass of water then just drop the fly into and watch as it sinks (or doesn't....) -note how it falls, nose down, level, or tail down, then watch closely to see how it lands..

 

Like Tidewater I've probably tied hundred of dozens for guides, anglers, and shops. Here are a few patterns that might give you some ideas. For smaller bones a #4 hook might be the largest you'll want - I'd want the same pattern in both #4, #6, and just maybe as small as a #8.... All I ever used was a 34007 (buying them 1000 per size...) but a standard 3407 (cadmium plated - not stainless...) will work just fine if you don't care about rust later destroying that bug if it was used in the salt.... Matter of fact plain old bronze freshwater hooks (if they're strong enough) will catch every bone they come across - but with freshwater hooks any fly is a throwaway, pretty quickly. Make a point of never keeping flies that have been used in the salt with flies that have never gotten wet (no matter how well you rinse them off - you'll have problems...).

 

Along with the bugs I'm going to post up you'll also want some small baitfish bugs along with you (think glass minnow imitations in white...) for the Caymans. Hope this helps - the bonefish clousers that I did so many of are tied pretty sparsely... wings on bonefish bugs that aren't clousers should be done up in calf tail (I'd want a white, tan, and soft pink for my calftails - one each should do up several dozen bugs.....

 

A few notes about the pics... The clousers shown are deadly effective everywhere we ever used them. Shops ordered them in tan or brown and white, fl. green and white, and pink and white... Pay particular attention to the size comparison between the #6 and #4 clousers (pic #5)...

 

The only Charlie I've shown is my own variation meant to be fished in heavy grass (note the heavy wing - much heavier than most charlies or Gotchas..). In use it's simply laid out a few feet in front of a moving fish and not moved in any way until the fish is almost on top of it - then a single quick twitch or two and you either scare the fish or get a bite - many big bones on this bug (up to 10 lbs along the edges of Biscayne Bay years ago...). The last two pics are my version of the Mitch Howell fly... Mitch won a few of the Islamorada bonefish tournaments years ago then went on the run one of those tournaments for a few years..... The original of this pattern came from Bob Kay - a tyer that both Mitch and I knew years and years ago (the first Mitch fly is shown in Lefty Kreh's first saltwater pattern book all those years ago....

[FlatsRoamer 0]

Thank you for the pictures Captain Bob. Is de barbing my hooks the right thing(what I plan on doing unless someone changes my mind ).

[mikechell 0]

Take a glass of water then just drop the fly into and watch as it sinks (or doesn't....) -note how it falls, nose down, level, or tail down, then watch closely to see how it lands..

Capt. Although I don't have a BIG problem with this, I do know that a fly on the end of your line acts quite differently that a free floating fly. One can change the action of a fly or lure by how much slack you give it between twitches. A Clouser falling on a water drag affected line will sink differently than one on a totally slack (looped) leader. But generally, you can get an idea in a glass of water.

 

Thank you for the pictures Captain Bob. Is de barbing my hooks the right thing(what I plan on doing unless someone changes my mind ).

If you are with me ... you'll see you DON'T have to debarb hooks. Barbed hooks rule !!!

ARE YOU WITH ME !!!! Yeeeeeaaaaahhhhh !!!!

[Capt Bob LeMay 0]

Me, I flatten the barbs on damned nearly every fly that I use (but none of the bugs that are meant for someone else... I figure that's the angler's choice....). A nearly barbless fly hook (and this goes double for jigs, plugs, spoons...) sticks a fish better, rarely comes un-buttoned during the fight, and is a lot easier to remove from either the fish....or you! Seriously, I've been to the ER twice over the years to have hooks removed (once a big 7/0 hook that was the deadly end of an 18" Barracuda tube lure... don't ask...). If you're ever hooked, pray that it's in a spot with few nerve endings (in my case the back of the head for that big hook - the upper arm for a 1/0 fly hook, and I was able to keep fishing for hours after each event before heading to the hospital after we returned from fishing... Hook yourself in the lip or the finger and it won't be so tolerable in my experience....

 

When you're "setting the hook" on a fish the point has already bitten him -you're trying to work the barb into place.... Flatten the barb with needle nosed pliers and the hook slides into place like you greased it...

 

Looking back on what I've posted on this thread I realize that I only showed one Charlie... If I have a moment later today I'll try to remedy that....

 

for Mike... you're absolutely right nothing beats having a leader attached to see how a fly actually behaves in the water - but for a quick check that glass of water is convenient... You can also bet that there's a difference on how a fly sinks depending on whether the leader has or doesn't have a loop connection on the bitter end. When I want a fly to sink as close to level as possible it won't be attached with a loop knot at all.... (but that's not very often for us....).

[Capt Bob LeMay 0]

Since I didn't have but one pic of a Crazy Charlie on file... thought I'd fix that and did a bit of work this afternoon. Here are the results... The box shown was both a sample box and my overflow for any casual customers needing bonefish bugs - as you can see it's been stowed away for a few years and is almost depleted.... I did have a few Charlies to show and some interesting size comparisons. All of the hooks are Mustad 34007 (I only use something else if the shop or customer asks...). I've tossed in a few Gotchas since I consider that pattern just one more Charlie variation (and also added my own Clear Charlie -the body is vinyl V-rib the "thread" is 4lb mono). The comparison of sizes for the Charlie is well worth a second look since it ranges from a #4 all the way down to a #8 and is a good illustration of how wings shorten, and materials in general get sparser as you go down in sizes....

 

By the way if you're ever asked for a "Blind Charlie" - just get out your nippers and remove the eyes....

[DavidR 0]

If you are DIY fishing I would tend to tie smaller rather than larger, think #4 and #6. Also not sure how good a caster you are, but be sure you can double haul with a leader 9-12 ft, again longer is better especially when DIY wading for bones.

 

If you can't double haul the wind will likely kick your butt ....and there is never no wind on the salt.