McFlyLures 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 So I have been trying to do some packed and spun deer hair heads on my sculpin streamers of late. I have tried the deer hair I have on hand (cheapest stuff I could find) and even tried elk, and even went crazy and tried some buck tail (not a great idea). I have had a lot of trouble. I just recently went onto J. Stockard's website and they had like 20% off on all their natural fur and hair materials. The local fly shop I go to doesn't really cary quality deer hair, and when they do, its crazy expensive. But they had some primo deer hair strips (like huge sizes) for $10 or so... I ended up getting 3 of them. Black, Olive, and Yellow. I cannot wait to see if this helps improve my spun hair heads. Maybe though it won't help and its just I suck at doing it. HAHA What do you guys recommend for thread? I use Danville's 210 flat waxed thread, which probably isn't the best idea since it won't be as slick. Its just what I have, and I have never actually gotten thread specifically for spinning hair. What is your favorite threads for this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vicente 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Danville 210 should work just fine, I use UTC GSP in either 200 or 75 GSP on size, I Also use, regular UTC in 140 or 210, mostly when I'm just doing a collar or something. It's more the tyer then the thread. The furred deer belly hair is most likely going to be much easier to quell with if is good quality then the body hair on the primo strips, although Islander, did sell me one that was phenomenal. Just practice if it's just spun or stacked heads and the hair isn't super soft or to short, hate to say it but the problem is probably you. Danville 210 shouldn't give you problems. On a side note if you get some gsp it will gunk up your bobbin pretty bad so put it on a cheap bobbin you agent going to want to use for other stuff, if you don't have one is worth the couple bucks to buy one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McFlyLures 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 No, I know it's mostly me... just hoping something helps me improve... but probably just practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vicente 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Yep tie some bass bugs, get lots of practice in on one. Remember to lock it in with a half hitch after you pack each section if there's more than one. I also like to use some head cement, loon is nice since it doesn't stink and you'll be using a good bit of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McFlyLures 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Yeah what I'm currently doing is more stacking then spinning actually, I am trying a cone head sinker sculpin with deer hair collar... just think I'm not packing it tight enough as there are large gaps between the hair... thought it could be the quality of hair, but it's more than likely me... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vicente 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Yea it's a little tricky getting it to come out super nice behind a cone head. Once you get up to the last good sized stack mask sure you have enough hair to get a good tight fit without having to pack it if possible. Once it's all in and done you may be able to pack the whole thing forward towards the cone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JSzymczyk 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 it could be BOTH the quality of the deer hair and you. GSP thread is a huge help. Yes you can spin hair with other threads, I and everyone else has done it for decades using nylon, but GSP is the what you want. We will hear lots of flak from other tyers, "you don't NEED GSP thread" which is true, but then you don't NEED to tie flies, or fly fish. I use 100 denier for small to medium deer hair jobs, and 200 denier for larger deer bugs. And, unfortunately, "primo" deer strips don't guarantee quality. I have one which completely sucks. It seems as if it was taken from a deer in Florida in August. Deer hair and Bucktails are materials I will only buy in person any more. They vary so much in quality that it is almost amazing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCream 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 it could be BOTH the quality of the deer hair and you. GSP thread is a huge help. Yes you can spin hair with other threads, I and everyone else has done it for decades using nylon, but GSP is the what you want. We will hear lots of flak from other tyers, "you don't NEED GSP thread" which is true, but then you don't NEED to tie flies, or fly fish. I use 100 denier for small to medium deer hair jobs, and 200 denier for larger deer bugs. And, unfortunately, "primo" deer strips don't guarantee quality. I have one which completely sucks. It seems as if it was taken from a deer in Florida in August. Deer hair and Bucktails are materials I will only buy in person any more. They vary so much in quality that it is almost amazing. It's usually from people who have never used GSP. I use 200den GSP (Veevus) for almost all hair work, small and large. There's nothing adverse I have found to using 200 on even tiny flies. I even use it on size 10 deer hair panfish bugs. I know I'm not going to break it, which is reassuring considering how much tension you tend to put through it. If I were you, I'd double the amount of hair you're tying in, and be sure you're using enough pressure to maximally flare it all. And when you're doing that, especially if it's a longer shanked streamer hook, support the underside of the hook with a finger while you flare so you don't damage the hook. It can happen. I use premo strips for collars behind coneheads on this pattern a lot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McFlyLures 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Cream, that's very similar to what I'm going for. Do you find the veevus 200 size will hurt a seramic bobbin? What about the veevus 140 or whatever it is? Is that not strong enough? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnyquahog 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 McFLy The 200 is less prone to cutting through your hair. 140 will work and not harm your bobbin. But the real reason I responded is to remind you that you absolutely must comb out the underfur / trash / insulation from the deer hair in order for it to stack or spin properly. Watching your cool Trout Vid I wasn't sure if you owned a comb. 8-) Make sure your turns of thread are directly on top of each other. The hair should flair in a V pattern and not a W. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McFlyLures 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Thanks Johnny, yes I own a comb... lol. I remove the underfur... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bryon Anderson 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 What are you using to pack the hair? You will be able to pack the hair much more tightly with a packing tool--either storebought like the Brassie or Pat Cohen's Fugly Packer--or homemade (some people use a ballpoint pen barrel, or things like that) than you will if you're just using your fingers. Another factor in how tightly you'll be able to pack the hair is your thread wraps--regardless of what type of thread you use, it is important that each wrap goes directly on top of the one that preceded it when flaring the hair. If you have thread wraps all through the bunch of hair, that's going to prevent the hair from compressing when you go to pack it. One mistake that I think most people make when they're learning to work with deer hair is not using large enough bunches of hair. The more hair you can pack into a given space, the denser that hair will be when it's trimmed down. With regard to using deer body hair (such as that found on "Primo strips"), I actually prefer this hair for packing heads on streamers, because it is less buoyant than deer belly hair, which is what is used to tie floating bass bugs. I would, however, second the recommendations of both JSzymczyk and johnnyquahog -- it is definitely best to lay eyes and hands on the hair you buy before laying down your money, to make sure that the hair is of good quality for spinning. Also-especially with the body hair--you definitely want to comb out the underfur and shorter hairs from each bunch before you attempt to mount it on the hook. You can overpay for a special comb made for this purpose from a fly tying retailer, or you can go to the pet department of your local big box and pick up a flea comb for around $3. That's what I use and it works very well. If you leave all that underfur and short hair in, the longer hairs won't be able to flare as well. Good luck; keep at it and it will get easier. If you can find one of Chris Helm's instructional videos (I think Feather-Craft still sells them), they are very helpful. Bryon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McFlyLures 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 With all the great free content now a days on YouTube I think it's a waste of money to buy instructional video, but thanks for the recommendation. Yeah that's my problem is not stacking them tight enough, I need to try the ball point pen idea, I like the cheaper option, if that don't work I'll look into one of those tools. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCream 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Putting a hair collar behind a cone is going to make it a bit difficult to pack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McFlyLures 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Yes your right, how do you do it cream? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites