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Need some expert opinions please - Hook suggestions for small flies


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12 replies to this topic

#1 Shmang

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 06:08 PM

Need some expert opinions please - I am looking to tie some micro nymphs / glass bead midge patterns - like size 18 to 24. Would you suggest a scud hook or a straight eye hook for something that diminutive?

I fished some 20s over the weekend with solid success but had a few come unglued using the straight eye hook so I was wondering if a scud style might offer more grip.

Any brands better than the other for this type of fishing?

Thanks


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#2 chugbug27

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 06:29 PM

Scud / Caddis pupa style, but make sure the hook bend is round and not flat on the bottom with a sharp angle, so you can slip the bead around the bend. Tiemco 2487 and 2488 would do it, but Allen has what looks to be a good scud hook for your purposes for $3.39 for 25 hooks, free shipping

https://www.allenfly...ddis-scud-hook/
cb27

"Fly tying is replete with unproven theories and contradictions and therein lies much of it's charm and fascination." George F. Grant, The Master Fly Weaver

#3 SilverCreek

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 07:07 PM

Need some expert opinions please - I am looking to tie some micro nymphs / glass bead midge patterns - like size 18 to 24. Would you suggest a scud hook or a straight eye hook for something that diminutive?

I fished some 20s over the weekend with solid success but had a few come unglued using the straight eye hook so I was wondering if a scud style might offer more grip.

Any brands better than the other for this type of fishing?

Thanks

 

 

Not all hook sizes are equal. The size of the hook is the BODY length you tie on the hook. Generally this is determined by the shank length of a typical hook, but scud hooks have no well defined shank end point.  Here are 3 hooks that are theoretically the same length. They should all be the length of the size 16 hook.

 

35684728766_ab8d323a22_z.jpg

 

 

The hook on the left is a 2XS size 14 hook so it should have the length of a size 16 with the gap of a size 14 hook. The middle hook is an old up eye Mustad size 16. The hook on the right is a scud shape size 16 hook. I submit to you that the bodies you would tie will all be of a different length depending on the hook.

 

With the scud hook, where does the bend of the hook start since the ENTIRE hook body is curved. If you look at scud patterns on the internet the bodies end at different points depending on the fly tier and what their preferences are.

 

Whatever hook you use, the perceived length of the pattern is NOT going to be the size of the hook you tie on a scud hook. The size will be determined by how long the body INCLUDING the bead is on the shank of the scud hook which may be larger than the "size" of the hook,

 

Gary Borger discusses my photo at the link below.

 

http://www.garyborge...-created-equal/


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Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

http://tinyurl.com/lgkbu7v

#4 Shmang

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 08:41 AM

Chug: I appreciate your input. I am going to hit the Fly Shop to check out the 2487s.  I have tied on them in the past but never that tiny. I got some Allen Hooks a few months back and they are sticky and quite the value so I jotted that down for an order in advance of a 10 day trip around Turkey Day.  

 

Silver:WOW what a visual! That really helped me understand what you were sharing so thanks.   I read both your reply and the attached blog post and learned a ton.  You are spot on that picking the right hook is more than a casual decision.  Being intentional I know will help all of us pop and land more fish  Do you have any favorite brands that you care to share?

 

Thank you both.

 

Shmang


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#5 tjm

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 09:20 AM

 

come unglued using the straight eye hook so I was wondering if a scud style might offer more grip.

I don't understand this, are you holding the bead in place with glue to the eye, or did the thread unravel or? I guess I don't see how the bent shank has anything to do with any failure. The eye itself is essentially the same on the scud hooks?

I used to use dry fly up turn eye for 22-24 nymphs/emergers and they worked, for me. I've only used tiny flies in still water though.



#6 mikechell

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 09:36 AM

Tjm ... I believe "come unglued" was Shmang's way of saying the FISH had come off the hook.  At least, that's the way I read it in the OP.

 

I've used, "unbuttoned" before ... but never "unglued".


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#7 chugbug27

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 10:43 AM

thanks for pointing that out tjm... Op, if you mean the bead comes off the front of the hook, you need a smaller bead not a different style of hook. If the bead is slipping down the shank, you need to build a thorax with thread behind it not a different hook.if you mean you're losing fish on the tiny hooks, you may just need to set the hook much more gently.

I like the scud style because it gives a curve to the body which might help impart an imitation of action to the fly. Straight shanks may work just as well.
cb27

"Fly tying is replete with unproven theories and contradictions and therein lies much of it's charm and fascination." George F. Grant, The Master Fly Weaver

#8 TheCream

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 11:35 AM

I've always had really good luck with the DaiRiki 125 (considered an emerger hook) on midge patterns like zebras and similar patterns.  I've got them down to I think 22 or 24, but fish the 20's most often.  It seems to hook and hold fish really well for a small hook, but I think DaiRiki's have gone away.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  I'd still look at the curved shank emerger hooks other companies offer in the size range you need.



#9 tjm

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 02:28 PM

The hook THeCream uses is 2X short giving a wide gap about equivalent with the next size larger hook, I use 2X short on most of my small flies (<16) for the wide  gape and I believe better hookup, Once upon a time I tied the flies short on the next size bigger hook to get the same effect.

On this page Eide lists some comparisons of other brands similar hooks; https://flyhooks.org/dai-riki/125

 

If staying hooked up is the problem, this wider gape might be a solution. I think sometimes though the fish just stubbornly  holds on without the hook ever setting until they see me.I've had trout spit the hook out when in the net.



#10 chugbug27

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 02:33 PM

The hook THeCream uses is 2X short giving a wide gap about equivalent with the next size larger hook, I use 2X short on most of my small flies (<16) for the wide  gape and I believe better hookup


That's exactly right, sloppy thinking on my part. Not a first...
cb27

"Fly tying is replete with unproven theories and contradictions and therein lies much of it's charm and fascination." George F. Grant, The Master Fly Weaver

#11 Sandan

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 03:45 PM

2487's (2x Short, 2x wide), 2488's (2x Short, 3X wide), 200's (another curved shank but 3x long) and 100's (standard dry fly but works great in small sizes for a nymph or midge), or the comparable "U" series to save some dough, depending on what you want the finished product to look like.  The Gamakatsu c12 is nice too as it has a "BIG" eye so you can thread your tippet through those 28s. 



#12 Shmang

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 04:55 PM

I sure appreciate everyone's input - this has really helped me out.


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#13 SilverCreek

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 08:54 AM

Sandan's suggestion of the 2488 is what most fly tyers seem to use for the really small flies because they go down to a size 30. But they are expensive hooks.

 

Screen Shot 2019-10-11 at 8.51.19 AM.png


Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

http://tinyurl.com/lgkbu7v