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Braided Loop Line Conncectors


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40 replies to this topic

#31 saltydancindave

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 05:30 PM

Does the Knot Sense last a long time in your pocket after opening? I have thought of buying some but would only use it it a few times a year.

Is there an alternative UV resin that has the same characteristics?

Haven't really carried any Knot Sense as usually just leave it in top bins of the fly tying desk as that's the easiest place to whip wraps which will get the Loon treatment.

As for no water entering the end of a flyline, not sure how that applies to an end of a fly line cut on a diagonal so it will lay flat against the flyline to make a smoother whipped loop, but it does stiffen the flyline sufficiently to make thread wraps more secure over the cut end doubled back.



#32 j8000

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 12:18 PM

I have a tip damaged line that I use quite often and un-naturally produces a sinking tip which is great the majority of the time.  But for the record, this line has been damaged for at least two probably three years and the same tip only sinks.  In other words, the water invasion has not entered the rest of the line.  Only the section that is damaged.

 

Jeff



#33 SilverCreek

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 12:48 PM

Most fly lines have a section of level tip that can be trimmed back without affecting the taper. Most of the time it is about 4" long.

 

34883065484_0c627aae2c_o.png


Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

http://tinyurl.com/lgkbu7v

#34 DFoster

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 08:36 AM

I have used both the braided loops and a standing loop at the end of my fly lines for more than 30 years!! 15 or 20lb Amnesia makes a good connection with a perfection loop on the leader end and a nail knot on the fly line end - a little tricky to make a neat nail knot but it works great!!

 

Amnesia line is a great tip!


"I am not against golf, since I suspect it keeps armies of the unworthy from discovering trout."
- Paul O'Neil

 

 


#35 SilverCreek

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 10:55 AM

 

I have used both the braided loops and a standing loop at the end of my fly lines for more than 30 years!! 15 or 20lb Amnesia makes a good connection with a perfection loop on the leader end and a nail knot on the fly line end - a little tricky to make a neat nail knot but it works great!!

 

Amnesia line is a great tip!

 

 

I use Maxima Chameleon which is a close match to the flex profile of leader butt material. It is specified in the majority of leader formulas and I also use it for hand tied leaders. So it should be used for the link to the leader itself?

 

https://guiderecomme...fishing-leader/

 

https://www.fishswam...ing-fly-leaders

 

https://uppercreekan...eader-formulas/

 

http://www.riseforms...er_formula.html

 

https://howtoflyfish...-tapered-leader

 

25 lb Maxima Chameleon is 0.020" and is a good match for trout leader butt diameters, Any thicker and it is hard to form a nail knot to the tip of a fly line.

 

If you don't have Maxima, then an alternative method is to cut the loop off of a commercial leader and nail knot it the fly line tip. After that leader is used up, cut the butt, leaving about 10" on the fly line and tie a perfection loop the end. Then loop to loop connect your next leader butt to the loop attached to the fly line.

 

I have amnesia but don't use it. I don't like having a bright optic yellow or red section of line on the end of my fly line.

 

Here is a link to the Parabolic Leader Test;

 

https://sweetandsalt...ader-selection/


Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

http://tinyurl.com/lgkbu7v

#36 tjm

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 11:28 AM

I have a few lines that have Chameleon loops and like those much better than braid. I usually like to use the 20#-.017" as my butt section and nail knot it to the line, but have some with 25#, at what would be the first blood knot in the formula tie a loop and build the rest of the leader with no butt sections- that two or three foot butt will last til the line starts to look bad at the nail knot and is long enough at that time to clip out the nail knot and do it again. When bass fishing the rest of the leader might  be just a piece of 8# looped on the line end. The one benefit of loop to loop connections that I like most is the ability to jump more than the standard 2-3 thousandths in diameter.



#37 SilverCreek

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 01:17 PM

The one benefit of loop to loop connections that I like most is the ability to jump more than the standard 2-3 thousandths in diameter.

 

I think you are referring to the "rule" that the step down in hand tied leaders diameters "should" be no more that 0.002". I guess it is time for some myth busting.

 

That really makes no logical sense. 

 

For example, a decrease in diameter from 0.020" to 0.018" at the leader butt is a 10% decrease in diameter but a decrease in 0.008" to 0.006" for the tippet is a 33% decrease in diameter. Why can is the butt section of a leader limited to a 10% change but the tippet section can be a 3.3 times as much of a change? That is totally bogus!

 

If there is any "rule" that is based on science, it would be based on a % decrease in linear mass. Just like a fly line tapers, so does a leader. It is the decrease in fly line mass as it tapers that rules over the fly line and the same is true with a tapered leader. The tapering of the leader results in a decrease in linear mass and that results in the preservation of forward velocity of the cast due to the law of the preservation of KE (kinetic energy).

 

Both a smooth transition of energy and an undetectable delivery require tapering. The reason is that energy, in the form of both the mass and velocity of the leader, is what delivers the fly. Tapering creates a system where a greater mass and therefore greater energy turns over lesser mass. An abrupt change in diameter (mass) from fly line to leader creates a hinge effect in which a low mass leader segment cannot accept the energy transfer at the end of the fly line/leader. 

 

There must be a maximum % diameter change that can be made without resulting in a hinge effect. The only way to determine the maximum % change is by experimentation.

 

The experiment is based on the concept that what changes at any any transition point is the linear mass density of the monofilament. When we go from a thicker (greater mass) section of leader material to a thinner (lesser mass) section, we are decreasing (changing) the mass; and there is maximum limit to how much that mass can change and still get a smooth transmission of energy from one section to the next.

 

This experiment was performed by Gary Borger. He found that a 1/3 diameter change was the most that could be made without creating the hinge effect. This is close to a 50% change in linear mass density.

 

A 30% change in diameter = a 50% change in mass. The linear mass density of a leader varies with the cross sectional area, and this varies with the square of the diameter. So if we go from a 0.010" to a 0.007" the ratio of the masses is (7/10) squared or 49/100. The linear mass density of the 4X mono is about 50% of the 1X mono. Any greater change and Gary discovered that you will not get a leader that casts smoothly.

 

Although we didn't mention velocity specifically in the 1/3 formula, velocity is an inherent component of energy that is transmitted. When we said that 1/3 is the maximum change that the allows for as smooth transmission of energy, we were saying that the velocity cannot change enough to compensate for a diameter change of greater than 1/3. The two components of kinetic energy are always interrelated. For kinetic energy to be transmitted down a fly line or leader, a change in mass results in a change in velocity.

 

Gary writes: "To make the math simple enough for mental on-the-water work, eliminate the decimals. In other words, a diameter like .009" (2X) would be thought of simply as "9." Then, take that number, multiply it by 2, and then divide it by 3 to get the next smaller size you can use. For example, 9 * 2 = 18. Then, 18 / 3 = 6. The number "6" corresponds to .006" (5X). Once you get "multiply by two, divide by three" going in your head, you can do one third step-down calculations with speed and ease." So it is perfectly acceptable to tie 5X to 2X without having a section of 3X or 4X material between them.

 

Of course you can use a smaller difference since the 1/3 change is the maximum. So if the leader end is 4X but you want a 5X leader, you can tie on 5X to the 4X.

 

We must assume that the monofilament sections have the same stiffness for a 1/3 ratio. A limp section of mono cannot transmit as much energy forward. This is the principle on which the George Harvey leader is built. A limp section of mono is less efficient at transmitting kinetic energy than a stiff section of mono and the section of the leader with the limp mono collapses for a drag free drift.

 


Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

http://tinyurl.com/lgkbu7v

#38 tjm

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 07:16 PM

 

That really makes no logical sense.

I did not invent the idea that blood knots are more prone to slip with greater than .003 diameter differance, I think it was in several books that I read and a few magazines. It never occured to me that it was myth, but thank you for the explanation. I'll probably continue use  a variation of the grapevine bend to join my leader sections.



#39 SilverCreek

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 07:49 PM

I did not invent the idea that blood knots are more prone to slip with greater than .003 diameter differance, I think it was in several books that I read and a few magazines. It never occured to me that it was myth, but thank you for the explanation. I'll probably continue use  a variation of the grapevine bend to join my leader sections.

 

My post was about the transfer of energy from the thicker to the thinner section of a hand tied leader and not about the blood knot.

 

Specifically addressing blood knots, many years ago Fly Fisherman Magazine did a study on blood knots. The critical factor is that the "bite" distance on each side of the knot should be equal (if the wrapped coils on one side measures 3 mm, the other side should measure 3 mm) AND that no fewer than 4 wraps and no greater than 6 wraps are done on a side. 3 wraps can slip and it is hard to get more than 6 wraps to set.

 

Typically, the same number of wraps are taken on each side and in fact there is a video of a speed blood knot to tie a quick version of a blood knot. However this will tie a slightly weaker knot than if the wraps are done individually. For example, if you tied a 0.021" to a 0.015" and did 4 wraps on each side, the side with the 0.021" would measure 4 x 0.021 = 0.084" and the 0.015 side would measure 4 x 0.015" = 0.060". You would need 2 extra wraps of the 0.015" to get to 0.090" to get an equal bite on each side.

 

If you did do 4 wraps on each side, the side of the blood knot with the 4 wraps of 0.015" would tend to slip because has a weaker grip on it's side of the knot.


Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

http://tinyurl.com/lgkbu7v

#40 DFoster

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 11:08 AM

Silver that's a lot of math - hopefully there won't be a test later! 

 

I tie my own leaders, the result of trial and error. On occasion I'll tie one that seems to match really well with the rod I'm using and my casting style.  The ones I like I copy.  All part of the fun!


"I am not against golf, since I suspect it keeps armies of the unworthy from discovering trout."
- Paul O'Neil

 

 


#41 flytire

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 12:39 PM

leader calc

 

https://globalflyfisher.com/leadercalc


We do it all the time! Get over it!