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Difference between genetic, India and Chinese


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#1 Brora

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 11:20 AM

I see these references all the time, but have not been able to find a good definition or description of the differences.. can anyone point me to a reference or know the answer?
Thanks

#2 mikechell

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 11:23 AM

Welcome to the site, Brora.  I cannot answer your question ... but there are a few on here who can, or can point you to proper references.


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#3 rstaight

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 11:57 AM

Here is my take on the subject. India and Chinese are basically the birds you find in the barnyard. There may be some breeding for different colors but that's about it.

The genetic birds are breed over time for fly tying. Whiting, Metz, and Keough are just a few. They have long hackles, softer hackles, what ever that breeder is wanting to accomplish.

Now this is just my layman's thoughts. I am certain someone out there can answer this a whole lot better than I.

"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers.  Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick F. McManus


#4 rockworm

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 12:09 PM

As I understand it the chicken originated in India and has since spread throughout the world (for obvious reasons.) It has been bred to increase its size and egg output and, to a lesser degree the colour and texture of its feathers.

 

I think "Indian" capes come from essentially "unimproved" stock; basically the wild bird. These skins are small and beacause they are are available in a huge selection of natural colourations are my favourites. The feathers are small and very good for collar hackles on dry flies (cock) and wet flies (hen) although you will only get a few turns out of each feather. The feather rachis (stem) is rather robust and tapers towards the tip; traits that can present some challenge to the tyer.

 

The "Chinese" skins are larger than the Indian and I presume come from barnyard birds raised primarily for their meat and eggs. Being larger, the feathers are more suitable for tying streamers, bass flies, etc. and are available in many colours (mostly white capes that have been dyed.) I don't know if they actually come from China- I would guess they do.

 

"Genetic" refers to birds painstakingly bred to improve the qualities of their feathers specifically for the fly tyer. The feathers are long and the rachis much finer and uniform. This means they are easier to work with and you can get many turns out of one feather (good for palmered flies and/or bushier collars.) As well as feather length and rachis diameter, the breeders have sought cock feathers which make better dry flies: the feathers have reduced webbing and have stiffer fibers- traits which improve the floating qualities of the fly. The downside of this is that the genetic hen capes have feathers that are also stiffer and with less web. In fact, you can substitute genetic hen hackle in most recipes that call for cock hackle.



#5 Brora

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 12:13 PM

Thanks everyone.

#6 flytire

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 12:53 PM

indian & chinese = $

 

genetic = $$$$


Fly tyers sure have a way at making things difficult

 

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#7 tjm

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 01:41 PM

Those guys covered the basics, I'll add my perspective; India hackles from the 1970s took three feathers to build one dry fly, genetic hackles can tie a dozen flies with one feather.

 

read the history bit

http://stevenojai.tr...om/genhack.htm



#8 Tom Cummings

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 01:59 PM

Genetic has longer and finer hackles India and Chinese is shorter and has many qualities we cut off so in todays standard you spend more but able to tie way more. In the end you save in materials. Many of my hackles I can get 10 to 12 dry flies but using Chinese or Indian each feather gets you a fly. Cost more get more.

#9 tjm

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 02:17 PM

Some of these will be repetitive and some may not go directly to your question, but hackle related stuff in my book marks that will better your understanding;

https://growlermag.c...of-fly-fishing/
http://whitingfarms....ultry-breeding/
http://cgtu.org/docu...etic_hackle.pdf
https://midcurrent.c...genetic-hackle/
https://www.backyard...terested.24918/
http://www.flytyingf...showtopic=58493
http://www.flytyingf...showtopic=74843
http://www.flytyingf...showtopic=59961
http://homepage.eirc...es/hackchos.htm
http://eflytyer.com/...s/feathers.html
https://globalflyfis...kle-demystified
https://globalflyfis...-dry-fly-hackle
https://globalflyfis...-dry-fly-hackle
https://globalflyfis...ing-soft-hackle



#10 Brora

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 09:43 PM

Thanks everyone for the responses, very helpful. I understood what the difference in quality was, just couldnt find what distinguishes a Chinese hackle from an India, etc.

#11 mikechell

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 05:18 AM

Chinese hackle has epicanthic folds ... India hackle doesn't.


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#12 Sandan

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 08:09 AM

Chinese hackle has epicanthic folds ... India hackle doesn't.

I thought that was only on the peacock eyes



#13 tjm

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 08:33 AM

China vs India hackles, In most cases I believe it is country of origin, not actually a racial thing. I haven't used or even seen the China feathers, so there may a fold in them, idk.

I think of the genetic feathers as GMO, even if it wasn't done in a test tube, there has been a terrific manipulation of genes over the last 50-70 years, to the point of breeding for longer legs to keep the longer hackles from dragging.  The added length is a bonus though, I think, my guess is Darby started trying to get thinner stems along with the dun color and the length was just a part of the thinner more pliable stem.



#14 SilverCreek

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 09:18 AM

Chinese hackle has epicanthic folds ... India hackle doesn't.

 

 It's joke by Mike. Epicanthic folds are eyelid folds commonly associated with Asians.

 

G40.jpg


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#15 mikechell

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 09:53 AM

Yes, it is a joke ... maybe.  I haven't seen a chickens eyes in a long time, so I don't know.

 

 

tjm ... I agree with you.  Almost nothing is "pure blood" anymore, but few things are GMO. 

Genetically Modified Organism applies, I believe, to any breed of animal that is not "mutt". 

A mutt would be haphazard interbreeding (humans, mostly and fortunately) rather than selectively breeding for specific traits.  A "Labradoodle" (Labrador and Poodle) is an example of a mutt, not a "breed".  Mutts are usually prettier and smarter than pure breeds but not genetically stable, yet.


Barbed hooks rule!
My definition of work: Doing something in which effort exceeds gain.
Ex-Marine ... quondam fidelis