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which thread?


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#16 870ExpressMag

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 08:19 PM

read this
 
http://globalflyfish...ng-thread-blues
 
uni 6/0 is identified as 135 denier in the following chart
 
http://globalflyfish...ng-thread-table
 
i wouldn't recommend utc thread for a beginner fly tyer. its a bit slippery and will fray rather quickly. i just started using utc 70d and i'm beginning to not like it at all. i think i'll be going back to veevus
 
i would go with uni 6/0 & 8/0 or danville 6/0 thread to start 
 
or even veevus

  

If I wasn't confused before reading the articles, I certainly am now! LOL

the 136D spools are most likely new ones
 
all of my uninspools only have 8/0 as said above
 
870
 
if you have those spools of 6/0 and you say you also have 8/0 why not use them to tie flies vs buying new spools? learn to tie with what you have


i need some more colors, wasn't going to not use what I have, just figured as long as I need a few new colors, if it was cheaper to buy the multi color packs, I would just have extra in the colors I already have, which are popular colors anyway


I guess maybe my question should be, which thread will be easiest for a newbie to tie with, I've been doing ok with the UNI, but if I could save some money I'm all for it.

#17 flytire

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 09:03 PM

white

 

and

 

staples-fine-multi-color-markers.jpg


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#18 Bugsy

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 11:44 PM

Easiest for a new tyer?

UNI poly thread is a bonded thread, which means it is treated with a coating that helps hold the filaments in a bundle. This results in a thread that can handle the unintended contact with a hook point without the same fraying or breakage issues seen in threads like UTC nylon. It builds up to a slightly higher profile faster than flat threads that can be untwisted, but it can still tie small. If too much twist builds up, the thread can jam while pulling through a whip finish, so watch for that. I find UNI grabs dubbing particularly well. I started using UNI in the early 90s, have gone through many spools, and don't recall ever having a bad spool. It's a good thread that has lost some fans to Veevus.

My first thread was Danville nylon in various sizes, and I still commonly use their Flymaster 6/0 and flat waxed nylon today. Two qualities I notice about nylon threads (including UTC) in contrast to poly threads like UNI is (1) the nylon has more stretch, and (2) nylon threads typically have more vibrant colors with more sheen. I'm not certain whether it's the additional wax or twist, but Danville 6/0 resists fraying better than UTC 70D in my experience. UTC may lay a bit flatter, but the filaments are spreading out wider. This takes a bit of patience and experience to manage, and sometimes that's still not enough. The UTC 70D I've used may be a wee bit stronger than Danville, but I'd say the latter is overall easier for the newer tyer to use on appropriately sized patterns. Both can be corded with a spin of the bobbin (bobbin holder for flytire), and either may be untwisted for split thread technique (something that UNI isn't well suited for). As for economy, Danville is the better value. If you're looking to build up a selection of colors, you may locate a supplier that stocks Danville in shorter spools (50 or 100yds). If I could ask for two things from Danville 6/0, I would ask for 10% more strength and an updated spool with durable label and a friendlier grasp for the thread's tag end.

#19 flytire

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 05:29 AM

 but Danville 6/0 resists fraying better than UTC 70D in my experience. UTC may lay a bit flatter, but the filaments are spreading out wider. This takes a bit of patience and experience to manage, and sometimes that's still not enough. The UTC 70D I've used may be a wee bit stronger than Danville, but I'd say the latter is overall easier for the newer tyer to use on appropriately sized patterns. Both can be corded with a spin of the bobbin (bobbin holder for flytire), and either may be untwisted for split thread technique (something that UNI isn't well suited for). As for economy, Danville is the better value. If you're looking to build up a selection of colors, you may locate a supplier that stocks Danville in shorter spools (50 or 100yds). If I could ask for two things from Danville 6/0, I would ask for 10% more strength and an updated spool with durable label and a friendlier grasp for the thread's tag end.

 

exactly what he said

 

A bobbin or a thread bobbin is the spool that holds your fly-tying thread and if you aren't one of the magicians who tie in the hands with basically no tools, you need something to hold that bobbin.

 

You need a bobbin holder.

 

Some people just call the tool a bobbin, but to me the bobbin is the thread spool, and the bobbin holder holds that spool. Your mileage may vary. :)


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#20 870ExpressMag

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:25 AM

I appreciate the info guys! I did end up and grab a few spools in UNI of just the colors I need right now since I I have used and know what I'm getting. I didn't get the multi color pack, like flytire said, I will learn to tie with what I have before I try to make my own opinions. I did order one spool of UTC 70 in black, seems to be very popular and used a lot, this will give me a chance to use it and see if I like it, if not I'm not out much. And when I need another color I'll try Danville, then I should be able to form my own opinions. I would have ordered some Danville right now based on your guys' recommendations, however the charts and comments about it being a little weak, I thought might add to a newbies frustration when learning thread control, I still nick that hook point once in a while

#21 Crackaig

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:50 AM

Some good advice has already been given. Different threads have different properties. As your experience grows you will get to a point where you will be able to pick a thread for its properties and how they suit what you are tying.

 

What we need is a sizing system for thread.One which we and all the thread makes stick to. Some don't even stick to the sizing method they use. Denier would be a good idea but, as it is based on the weight of a given length of a thread is useless for comparisons across ranges. Say silk thread to polyester thread. They will be of such different sizes for the same denier that the system is useless. Even worse is the aught system. "0" Was the finest thread which could be spun from silk. Time passed, spinning techniques developed, and the thread size shrank. When it got to half the size it was they called that "00". Each time the thread size halved they added a "0". Therefore, 7/0 (0000000) would be half the size of 6/0 (000000), 8/0 would be half the size of 7/0, therefore, 8/0 would be one quarter the size of 6/0 Is it??? So which Uni thread is correct to the "0" system? We just don't know. Even worse is that one maker's 8/0 is another's 14/0. To add to the confusion Uni may be 136 denier, that means the weight, not the size, of the thread is similar to UTC 140. Its a nightmare.

 

Trying to sort this out is not easy. You could state the diameter of thread, but that varies with twist, how much twist over what length, and what about the threads that can not be completely flattened before putting the right number of twists in in to measure?

 

All I do is to think about the techniques I will use, and select a thread who's properties suit those techniques. If I am asked what thread I am using I can state it and why. That doesn't mean other threads will not do just as good a job.

 

Thread isn't cheap, sorry Bugsy, we buy it is too small quantities for it to be cheep. Several years ago I bought a 15 000m spool of bonded polyester thread that was a little finer than Uni 8/0. It cost me about £9. At that time a 200m spool of uni cost, at my local tackle shop, £2.20. Which means to buy the same length of Uni would cost £165. By buying thread in such small quantities you loose all economy of scale. When you buy a spool of thread you are paying more for the spool than the thread which is on it. If you know a lot of tiers, or are in a club, then I suggest you get those interested together. Each buys a spool of 1 colour of Guttermann Skala. Repurpose a sewing machine motor as a spool winding motor, and save yourselves a small fortune.

 

Cheers,

C.


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#22 Dave G.

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:55 AM

In my experience, Uni resists the hook point nicking best of the three brands mentioned. I don't know what sizes you bought, I'd have gone with 8/0 if to buy Uni personally. Sounds like you're on a good plan track !

 

Bugy's post is dead on, he said it all better than I could have. Exactly what he said is my experience as well.


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#23 flytire

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:09 AM

870

 

i think yo did it right by ordering 1 spool(bobbin :)) of utc to try out. if you dont like it youre not out a ton of money as you would be if you bought every color


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#24 870ExpressMag

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:37 AM

In my experience, Uni resists the hook point nicking best of the three brands mentioned. I don't know what sizes you bought, I'd have gone with 8/0 if to buy Uni personally. Sounds like you're on a good plan track !

 

I have a mix of 6/0 and 8/0 depending on what was recommended in the fly recipes i'm going to tie.  I didnt know any better and had to start somewhere.  I was having troubles with the first bobbin holder (flytire biggrin.png), it was a cheap India model.  I was breaking 6/0 with it.  Switched to a Griffen ceramic, and finally got it adjusted so i can use 8/0 without breaking.  Just got a RITE to try, first impressions are it feels weird in the hand and heavy on the back end, but i was able to maneuver it in the hand to get it to feel ok, time will tell if i like it



#25 flytire

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:47 AM

keep tying with the rite bobbin holder and before you know it it will become your bobbin holder of choice


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#26 Dave G.

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:48 AM

 

In my experience, Uni resists the hook point nicking best of the three brands mentioned. I don't know what sizes you bought, I'd have gone with 8/0 if to buy Uni personally. Sounds like you're on a good plan track !

 

I have a mix of 6/0 and 8/0 depending on what was recommended in the fly recipes i'm going to tie.  I didnt know any better and had to start somewhere.  I was having troubles with the first bobbin holder (flytire biggrin.png), it was a cheap India model.  I was breaking 6/0 with it.  Switched to a Griffen ceramic, and finally got it adjusted so i can use 8/0 without breaking.  Just got a RITE to try, first impressions are it feels weird in the hand and heavy on the back end, but i was able to maneuver it in the hand to get it to feel ok, time will tell if i like it

 

870, don't give up on that old bobbin holder. 9 out of 10 times when thread is fraying and breaking it's because the tension is set too tight on the spool or otherwise you set too much drag how ever you personally work that out ( some use a finger, others side pressure by squeezing, others rely totally on the tension of the tools arms). I had an old copper tube holder I swore I'd never use again. Then relegated it to just floss. When I started seeing even floss fraying I thought wait a minute here. At teh same time I had a stainless holder tubed holder that was busting thread, now I know it must be user error. I put thread back in the copper one after more than 20 years of owning that thing, adjusted the arms and have been using it ever since. Eventually the copper will wear, so I'll probably go back to floss with it this winter.


John 7:38 ESV  is about "Rivers of Living Water"


#27 870ExpressMag

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:49 AM

i ended up putting .015 lead free wire in it when tying bluegill spiders, i like it for that so far.  i know part of the problem was way to much tension judging by the marks it left on the end of the bobbin that was in it.  after adjusting it did ok, but i liked the griffen a lot more so i will just use it for wire since its just a flared metal tube



#28 Cold

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 08:01 AM

.



#29 Dave G.

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 08:19 AM

Griffin is my first choice in bobbins/holders FWIW... I like ceramic in the tube and the nylon/delrin bearings. Very smooth operating, IMO.

That said , there are cheap imports of the same design that are potentially good too.

 

I've never owned a Rite, probably never will, not when I'm fully happy with what I have.


John 7:38 ESV  is about "Rivers of Living Water"


#30 Randyflycaster

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:09 AM

I converted to Veevus. I love it.

Randy