Jump to content


 Welcome to FlyTyingForum.com


FlyTyingForum.com is the largest fly tying community in the world and we hope you take a moment to register for a free account and join this amazingly friendly and helpful group of anglers. FTF has over 12,000 registered members that have made over 300,000 posts and have uploaded over 6,000 patterns to our exclusive fly pattern database!

If you are an experienced fly tier or just starting out FTF is the perfect place to call home. Click Here To Register for a Free Account

Fly Pattern Database / Browse by Topics / Browse by Material / Fly Tying Bench Database / Fly Fishing & Tying Videos / FTFCurrent(NEW!)
Featured Products: Fly Tying Hooks / Fly Tying Scissors / Waterproof Fly Boxes
Photo

barrel rolling woolly bugger

fly tying woolly bugger

  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#1 wr1nkles

wr1nkles

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:23 AM

I just started fly tying last month and started with the suggested patterns, one being the woolly bugger.

 

I fished some that I tied a few weeks ago at my favorite kettle pond. Every dozen or so casts I'll pull the fly in to check it and noticed that my leader was twisted. I've never have this problem before and thought it was strange. So this past weekend I went out again but put on a new leader with the same woolly bugger. Son of a... the leader was twisting again.

 

So this BH woolly bugger must be doing some serious barrel rolling the entire time I'm stripping it in. Can't imagine a trout is going to go for a baitfish doing that haha.

 

Anyone experience or heard of a similar issue? Is it the way I've tied the fly? I can't imagine my cast would cause this twist. I followed Tim Flaggers BH woolly bugger recipe on YouTube. I don't know much about fly tying yet, so I can really troubleshoot what I've done wrong.

 

 

If it's nice next weekend I'll have to drag it through the water at my feet to see if I can see anything obvious.

 

 

Any help would be appreciate. Thanks!


My psychiatrist told me I was crazy and I said I want a second opinion. He said okay, you're ugly too.


#2 rockworm

rockworm

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,374 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 09:53 AM

I think this is caused by the palmered hackle which can function like a screw propeller. A softer feather (or one with longer barbs) might help. Or you could use a second hackle over the first but wrapped in the opposite direction. Or just go with it and attach your fly with a tiny swivel. The fish might like the action.



#3 flytire

flytire

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10,937 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 10:53 AM

Your leader tippet may be to small for your fly?

signature-bar.jpg

 

Fly tyers sure do have a way at making things complicated

 

Beware of the negativity being displayed


#4 johnnyquahog

johnnyquahog

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 324 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 10:55 AM

I feel your pain.  I fish kettle ponds as well.  If there is no activity on top my go to fly is a gartside sparrow which I fish like a wooly bugger.  I use a slime line (slow intermediate).  A couple years ago I started using the smallest swivel (actually I got the two smallest sizes from Cabela's display) on this rig with no apparent diference to the trout.    The swivel increases the useful life of the leader, cuts down the twisting, lets me switch between stiffer 4x Maxima or a softer 4x or 5x or even 5.5x fluoro if I think it might make a difference.  Other than a couple good days in October the fishing has been real slow which I attribute the the high water, and not catching a midge hatch.  Tight lines..



#5 Dave

Dave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 698 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 11:15 AM

What's a kettle pond?  I've never heard that name before.



#6 Bryon Anderson

Bryon Anderson

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,882 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 11:55 AM

I would second Flytire's suggestion--I think your tippet is probably too light for the size fly you're using. Rockworm's observation about the cause of the "barrel rolling" (stiff hackle) is also true.

 

If softer hackle and/or a heavier tippet don't solve the problem, Feather-Craft does sell tiny barrel swivels intended to address this very problem.

 

A final thought--I use a non-slip loop knot to tie on all my streamers (including buggers). I use this knot because it improves the fly's swimming action in the water, but it may also help with the leader twist issue.


"... trout do not lie or cheat and cannot be bought or bribed or impressed by power, but respond only to quietude and humility and endless patience." -- John Voelker (aka Robert Traver), Testament of a Fisherman


#7 flytire

flytire

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10,937 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 12:34 PM

What's a kettle pond?  I've never heard that name before.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ttle_(landform)


signature-bar.jpg

 

Fly tyers sure do have a way at making things complicated

 

Beware of the negativity being displayed


#8 mikechell

mikechell

    I'm Mr Freezemieser I'm Mr Snow!!!

  • Super Moderators
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,028 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 12:48 PM

The line twist can, absolutely, be caused during the casting, not necessarily during the stripping.  In fact, anytime I've had twist develop in my line, it's during the cast.  How do I know?  When the fly hits this water, it starts UNtwisting.  With top water poppers, this can be a GREAT benefit.  Just keep light tension on the line makes the fly roll in place.  It is VERY much like a bug struggling on the surface.  The fish see legs flipping about ... they don't recognize that it rolling, just that it's making little ripples without going anywhere.

 

With your Wooly Bugger, it can be a problem, but if you can slow your retrieve to a "crawl" and let the bugger spin ... yes, fish WILL go after it.  Contrary to popular belief, fish aren't that smart.  They see movement.  A minnow or bug struggling in the water sometimes spins, sometimes wiggles, sometimes darts around like a leaf on the wind.  That spinning fly looks like a struggling critter ... the motion is the "sign of life" that triggers a strike.


Barbed hooks rule!
My definition of work: Doing something in which effort exceeds gain.
Ex-Marine ... quondam fidelis
 


#9 redietz

redietz

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 511 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 01:48 PM

The line twist can, absolutely, be caused during the casting, not necessarily during the stripping.  In fact, anytime I've had twist develop in my line, it's during the cast.  How do I know?  When the fly hits this water, it starts UNtwisting.  With top water poppers, this can be a GREAT benefit.  Just keep light tension on the line makes the fly roll in place.  It is VERY much like a bug struggling on the surface.  The fish see legs flipping about ... they don't recognize that it rolling, just that it's making little ripples without going anywhere.

I think that was the reason that fan wing dry flies were so effective.  They're real leader twisters, and move about quite a bit when untwisting.

 

I agree with the general consensus here that it's likely the casting that's twisting the leader, and that heavier tippet will solve the problem.


Bob


#10 wr1nkles

wr1nkles

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 01:50 PM

I think this is caused by the palmered hackle which can function like a screw propeller. A softer feather (or one with longer barbs) might help. Or you could use a second hackle over the first but wrapped in the opposite direction. Or just go with it and attach your fly with a tiny swivel. The fish might like the action.

 

That was my first thought, but I (too quickly) dismissed it because I've fished other woolly buggers with a palmered hackle and never had this happen before. I did not consider how the stiffness of the hackle could influence this twist. I'm using a Whiting bugger pack which I thought was to be the best? Maybe I'll tie a few with longer/softer barbs and see how that performs. Should I be using the tips from longer hackle feathers for softer barbs?

 

Your leader tippet may be to small for your fly?

 

Maybe? Is a 9' 3x for a #12 BH woolly bugger to small? Guy who first taught me about fly fishing was dead set on only using 5x for trout. I quickly formed my own opinion...

 

The line twist can, absolutely, be caused during the casting, not necessarily during the stripping.  In fact, anytime I've had twist develop in my line, it's during the cast.  How do I know?  When the fly hits this water, it starts UNtwisting.  With top water poppers, this can be a GREAT benefit.  Just keep light tension on the line makes the fly roll in place.  It is VERY much like a bug struggling on the surface.  The fish see legs flipping about ... they don't recognize that it rolling, just that it's making little ripples without going anywhere.

 

With your Wooly Bugger, it can be a problem, but if you can slow your retrieve to a "crawl" and let the bugger spin ... yes, fish WILL go after it.  Contrary to popular belief, fish aren't that smart.  They see movement.  A minnow or bug struggling in the water sometimes spins, sometimes wiggles, sometimes darts around like a leaf on the wind.  That spinning fly looks like a struggling critter ... the motion is the "sign of life" that triggers a strike.

 

I get what you are saying about twist in the cast. I've experience that loop of leader on the surface unrolling after the fly lands.

But I think I can rule out casting error in this case. I've never has this much twist in my leader until I started using these buggers I tied.

 

I literally lift the leader and fly out of the water and it's just starts spinning like mad untwisting itself.


My psychiatrist told me I was crazy and I said I want a second opinion. He said okay, you're ugly too.


#11 chugbug27

chugbug27

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 970 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 02:22 PM

It's a common problem. Here's a furled leader with swivel designed and advertised to address it.

https://www.feather-...treamer-leaders
cb27

#12 flytire

flytire

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10,937 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 02:42 PM

looks to be the right sized tippet

 

tippet-sizes.jpg


signature-bar.jpg

 

Fly tyers sure do have a way at making things complicated

 

Beware of the negativity being displayed


#13 Rocco

Rocco

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,074 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 06:08 PM

Never had a twist problem with wooly buggers on probably thousands of casts but then I usually fish them with a small split shot on or near the nose.

 

You might also try a loop knot to the eye of the hook and stiffer  leader material, I bet the twist effect will be greatly reduced.

 

Rocco



#14 mikechell

mikechell

    I'm Mr Freezemieser I'm Mr Snow!!!

  • Super Moderators
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,028 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 07:05 PM

When you're doing the palmering ... do you wrap the last two or three twist on top on each other?  I'm wondering if those last few wraps on top of each other can offset the twisting action.

 

spin.jpg

 

Just conjecture.


Barbed hooks rule!
My definition of work: Doing something in which effort exceeds gain.
Ex-Marine ... quondam fidelis
 


#15 rstaight

rstaight

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 934 posts

Posted 19 November 2018 - 07:25 PM

Mike,

That is one technique I have seen. The other is to use a saddle shackle. Palmer front to back then come back to the front. The "cork" screws will counter each other.

"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers.  Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick F. McManus






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: fly tying, woolly bugger