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I wish there was a chart somewhere about densities of material


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19 replies to this topic

#1 epzamora

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 11:59 AM

I'm relatively new to fly tying. i've been going hog-wild lately in buying material it seems but i'll never have everything. at least let's hope not! One dollar here, $2.50 there, what's another $1.75 to an order, grab that stuff for $2.50 on the rack...  it adds up! but the array of material and its uses, both traditional and used as substitutes is dizzying.

 

for instance, material for tails on dry flies.... some recipes call for material i do not have. but i have stuff that resembles it. but what floats, what sinks? it's an education. i think it would be great for beginners to reference a chart of material in order of bouyancy with zero as the demarcation line. antron on one side (sinking?), zelon on the other (floating). badger fibers listed in relation to microfibbets and pheasant tail fibers. i know the details could be work-intensive. elk hair comes in so many varieties (plus there would be elk vs carabou vs moose hair).

 

does such a list combining a multitude of material exist anywhere online?  just wondering...

 

-eric

fresno, ca.



#2 Hatchet Jack

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 12:51 PM

Best think of this as a 'function machine', which determines

(after inputting massive funds) M/V aka, density.

Given: f(x) = y

Where:

f = fly tyer

x = $2

y = y do I have so much crap?

☺☺☺☺☺☺

Seriously, ya gotta go out and spend the time & $$ and learn away.

No quick way that I know of.

Small caveat ~ some synthetic materials are labeled 'floating' but it pays to test them.


Always quit when you're through.


#3 Jaydub

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 01:02 PM

There is more than density to consider when constructing a dry fly. For instance pheasant tail fibers are not very dense but make lousy dry fly tails. Other materials may be more dense but are less absorbant and stiffer and maker better dry fly tails. 



#4 bellevue.chartreuse.trout

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:27 PM

... and then there's the issue of surface resistance to the water surface, to the mass of the material used - and floatent(or is it floatant?? the float/silicone dry fly 'stuff' applied to dry flies)... etc...

 

I've used pheasant tail fibers effectively for dry fly tails! But floatant helps.. most certainly. They are 'delicate' though.... may very well tear off rather easily. Still, I've used them and will continue to do so.

 

I think the list you seek is titled .. 'experience' ... but there may be something. I've never run across such a list - not  to say it doesn't exist. Good luck with the search!



#5 SilverCreek

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:34 PM

Dry flies can float by two methods. 

 

You have picked specific gravity as one variable. HOWEVER, no matter how low the specific gravity of a material; if it not submerged, it is not contributing to floatation. A material with a SG<1 can only use it's boutancy when it displaces water. It is a common misconception that buoyant materials that are NOT submerged can help float the fly. They do not. Any mass above the waterline is helping to sink the fly no matter what the value of SG.

 

The other reason that flies is just as and perhaps more important than SG. That reason is the surface tension of water due to the hydrogen bonding of water molecules to each other. 

 

http://edtech.boises...on_tutorial.htm

 

So splayed dry fly tails, parachute hackle, etc distribute the mass of the fly across the water surface so that it surface tension that supports the fly. Surface tension is a force, and the weight of the fly (gravity) is a downward force pushing on the water surface. When this downward force of gravity is less than the maximum force that surface tension can exert upward, the object floats. See the diagram of a pin floating on water in the illustration below.

 

RTEmagicC_FloatingNeedle-zoomout_01.gif.

 

Note in the example above that the surface of water is displaced downward just like a hull of a boat is displaced downward into the water. However, in the case of surface tension, the pin is floating ON the surface while a boat is floating IN the water. In the actual photo below, see how deeply the pin is BELOW the actual surface of the water. So the pin actually DISPLACES water just like the hull of a boat displaces water to support the mass of the boat.

 

RTEmagicC_floatingneedle.jpg.jpg

 

In the case of most dry flies it is NOT that the SG of the fly is actually less which makes it float; it is surface tension. If it were Specific Gravity, most of the fly would be under water! It would be the floating below like a boat (buoyancy) rather than a pin.

 

Buoyancy-force.PNG


Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

http://tinyurl.com/lgkbu7v

#6 mikechell

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 05:31 PM

HOLY SMOKES !!!
I am SOOOO using sewing needles to tie my next dry fly !!!!

 

RTEmagicC_floatingneedle.jpg.jpg


Barbed hooks rule!
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#7 bellevue.chartreuse.trout

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 06:03 PM

BCT <--- slaps self on side of head... (sighs).. Mikey.. Mikey.. Mikey.. lol



#8 tidewaterfly

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 07:35 PM

There are books that list various materials & properties of such, but none have every material that is popular or available now. There seems to be new materials every year, particularly synthetics. As far as "densities", it's doubtful a chart would be of much value on a per material basis, as very few fly patterns are tied with a single material & trying to calculate a density of a combination would be quite trying & likely useless in the end. 

 

I've actually found such resources such as Wikipedia to be valuable for ascertaining properties of similar materials, but I've also been doing this a long time & have some experience with many types of materials already. It helps to at least understand the source of the materials & the general properties. Your example of  " (plus there would be elk vs carabou vs moose hair)" is a good one. Elk & Caribou hair is similar, but Moose has some different properties. Each has it's uses.  

 

Google is also a good resource as many materials can be compared by searching for them as fly tying materials. Of course that may take some time especially if not familiar with the the materials generally to begin with. 

 

Frankly, the best source of information is right here! Simply ask! smile.png



#9 epzamora

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:36 AM

(chuckling)  i was just thinking out loud, so to speak...  i know this stuff comes with experience as all things do, and have. thanks for the replies, and silvercreek, you went above and beyond in taking time formulating your response!  lol  

 

eric

fresno, ca.



#10 epzamora

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:38 AM

btw, i was going to "like" hatchet jack's response first, but i received a message that i've exceeded the amount of likes in one day. it was the first time i've tried that feature! anyway, i like all of your responses. thanks again.

 

eric

fresno, ca.



#11 SilverCreek

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 07:41 AM

Here are the specific gravities of some metals in comparison to lead.

 

Tungsten           19.0

Tantalum           16.6

Lead                 11.342

Silver                10.5

Molybdenum      10.2

Bismuth              9.781

Copper               8.89

Nickel                 8.85

Monel                 8.80

Cobalt                 8.71

Iron                    7.87

Tin                     7.29

Zinc                   7.14


Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

http://tinyurl.com/lgkbu7v

#12 Gene L

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:32 PM

If you follow the time-tested recipes for flies, you'll generally not need a chart, which would be terribly complicated if even useful. 



#13 epzamora

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 12:36 AM

Purchasing the exact material for every fly i'm interested in tying is not possible, and though I can focus on a few solid patterns, exploration of other patterns is interesting. plus i do not have a bottom-less wallet and there's only one fly shop with limited material in 200 miles. I see some material is rare or simply not stocked or outdated/illegal or simply ridiculous (I was about to hit the Place Order button for two packs of Zelon from Blue Ribbon Flies and then saw the shipping cost for $6 of lightweight material would be $8).

 

The fun aspect I am embracing is substitution of material. forums like this are great resources. I'll learn, it'll come with time experience.

 

eric

fresno, ca.



#14 flytire

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 05:54 AM

A recommendation seen on most forums is to pick out 5-10 that you want to learn how to tie.

 

Buy the materials provided in the recipes of those flies.

 

These materials are now the building blocks for tying different fly patterns in the future.

 

 

This list of beginner tying materials is simply a list based on my 30+ years experience in fly tying. The list provided below is for a new tyer who wants to tie trout flies but can spill over to different genres of fly tying. It is a BASIC list. Could other items have appeared on the list? Of course they could but that's somebody elses list. Other tyers will add or subtract materials to their liking. So be it. Remember its a BASIC list of materials. It contains materials the can tie hundreds or even thousands of fly patterns.

 

This list is in no order of preference. This list is provided for your convenience and in no way requires you to buy all tying materials all at once or any materials for that matter. It is also a generic list of materials as I really don't have any preferences as to what brand of materials you buy.

 

Eventually you will need materials if you want to continue tying flies. The list may give you a head start as to what you might want to buy

Again, you do not have to buy the entire list all at once!

 

Buy what you want when you need it!

 

1. Hooks (in different styles and sizes)
2. Thread (6/0 to start in black & white)
3. Pheasant Tail (center feathers when possible for the longest fibers)
4. Peacock Herl (eye feathers and strung herl)
5. Marabou (blood quills are better)
6. Deer hair
7. Elk hair
8. Buck tail (in different colors like red, yellow, or white)
9. Lead or non-lead wire (in different sizes)
10. Ribbing wire (silver, copper & gold)
11. Rooster Hackle (grizzly, brown, white & dun) A good option is an introduction pack
12. Hen neck or saddle (grizzly, brown, dun etc) (great for soft hackle & wings)
13. Hungarian Partridge Skin (great for soft hackles)
14. Dubbing dispenser of hares ear (various colors) & superfine dubbing for dry flies
15. Gray duck or goose wing feathers (used for wing cases)
16. Head cement
17. Tinsel and other flash materials (in assorted colors)
18. Calf tail (start with white, add colors when necessary)
19. Yarns & chenille (used for making bodies, both in assorted colors)
20. Floss (1 strand or 4 strand in assorted colors)
21. Strung hackle (practice wrapping hackle with this. cheap alternative to the pricey hackles)

 

Poor quality materials are destined to discourage beginner tiers and cause greater expense when the time comes to replace them. Buy the best you can.


Most fishermen use the double haul to throw their casting mistakes further - Lefty Kreh


#15 flytire

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:01 AM

I see some material is rare or simply not stocked or outdated/illegal or simply ridiculous

 

very true but you dont need to buy those types of materials to tie basic flies.

 

i think we should all try to remember that buying a single item from an online fly shop is going to cost you big time in the shipping. i always have a larger order to offset the cost of shipping. there are online shops with FREE shipping. you just have to know where to look


Most fishermen use the double haul to throw their casting mistakes further - Lefty Kreh