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22 replies to this topic

#1 Poopdeck

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 08:37 PM

I've always used an improved clinch, uni or palamor knot for tying on flies. Today it dawned on me, my eyes suck, my patience is getting shorter and my fingers have grown fatter and less maneuverable. Time to switch to a different knot to accommodate my realizations.

I'm switching to a clinch knot because it's simple and can be tied easily with a pair of forceps. My problem is I have no faith it in. How many twists do you guys put in it and are my fears in its strengths misguided. I used it today for some sunnies but that's not really a test.

#2 heavynets

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 09:47 PM

 

Video show how it could be done with forceps or hackle pliers.

 



#3 mikechell

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 09:47 PM

It's the only knot I've ever used for tying a fly or other lure to mono.  Palomar for braid on my conventional gear, now, but the clinch knot for mono.

I can't recall ever losing a fish because the knot failed.  I've lost a lure here and there on snags, but even those are rarely the knot's fault.

 

I'm good with the clinch.


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#4 redietz

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 11:10 PM

I've always used an improved clinch, uni or palamor knot for tying on flies. Today it dawned on me, my eyes suck, my patience is getting shorter and my fingers have grown fatter and less maneuverable. Time to switch to a different knot to accommodate my realizations.

I'm switching to a clinch knot because it's simple and can be tied easily with a pair of forceps. My problem is I have no faith it in. How many twists do you guys put in it and are my fears in its strengths misguided. I used it today for some sunnies but that's not really a test.

 

I think the clinch know is actually a better knot than the "improved' clinch.  I've never had failure with the former, but have with the latter.  (I think it's because it's harder to tighten, weakening the nylon.)

 

I use 7 turns on 5x, maybe a fewer on heavier tippet.  Cinch the knot tight with your thumbnail and finger, rather than just yanking hard.


Bob


#5 chugbug27

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 11:32 PM

A lot of my improved clinch knots actually do unravel. I've always blamed myself for doing something wrong and just carried on. I'll try the unimproved one and see if that doesn't actually help. I've always used the improved one because I know it's supposed to be stronger (so why not use it?), but thinking about it now I've rarely lost a fly on a broken knot unless it's snagged on something.
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#6 tjm

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 03:01 AM

The clinch knot is better than the improved clinch knot, saw a test one time that proved it.**

 

Both have failed me in small mono tippets, and are for me one of the most difficult to knots there is to tie properly with wet cold hands, so I have used a double surgeon knot in building leaders and tying on flies for most of my adult life. 

 

I have been using that Davy knot some recently (last year) and so far have not had a failure. It takes more thought for me to tie in the dark or cold  than the familiar "twice around and thrice thru" surgeon knot, but  my grandson makes it look easy.

 

**Other tests  I've read said the opposite, a few tests put the Trilene knot at the top for mono to lure and often the nonslip loop knot is rated high  as leader to lure knot, but most all the knot strength tests are done with 20# test hawsers not with tippet material.



#7 SilverCreek

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 12:20 PM

The Orvis knot for me. 

 

It wastes very little mono since the tag end can be made very short relative to other knots. So it is strong knot that also preserves the length of the tippet. 

 

Knot strength tests can vary due to the brand of mono material tested; but in general in this test and in the 2012 Tippet shootout the Orvis Knot out performed the Davy Knot.

 

Orvis vs Davy:

 

The Davy Knot: Is This The Quickest & Strongest Fishing Knot?

 

Orvis vs Double Davy:

 

Double Davy Knot: Video Tutorial and Strength Test

 

Palomar is the strongest mono to hook BUT it is a poor knot for flies because a double loop of mono must be threaded through the hook eye:

 

Best Fishing Knot for Leader to Hook Connection [Snug Style] >> Salt Strong Fishing

 

"Although the Palomar ended up being the strongest in this contest, the Orvis Knot is still my favorite for this category because*its tag points down towards the hook lure allowing for less snags in addition to the fact that it’s easier to tie (especially if using artificial lures) while only having a slightly lighter breaking strength."

 

 

Complete list of knot tests:

 

The Best Fishing Knots Of All Time [Ranked Strongest To Weakest]

 


Regards,

Silver

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#8 tjm

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 05:01 PM

20# flurocarbon as tippet material? Your panfish run bigger than mine.



#9 Poopdeck

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 05:30 PM

Some good suggestions, thanks! I'm feeling more confident in the strength of the clinch knot. I tried the davey knot and the orvis knot. The orvis knot has to many turns through loops so that's out. I think I'm embracing my aging eyesight by going for ease of tying over strongest knot. The davey knot I like but I'm going to try it on my spinning gear. Right now the clinch knot is hands down the simplest and quickest knot for me. I'm gonna stick with the clinch but go to the davey if strength is a problem. Ill keep practicing the orvis to see if it gets easier though. Thanks for the replies.

Let me add one more thing. I stopped tying blood knots for my leaders in the traditional way as this became a hassle as well. I now tie the speed blood knot which is as simple and quick as tying a dropper loop. I just caught a 14" SMB in current on my 4wt with a leader tied with the speed blood knot. Not a huge fish but enough of a test that I have complete faith in the speed blood knot. It's a game changer and, in my opinion, throws the traditional blood knot on history's ash heap.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=KOZum2373iw

#10 SilverCreek

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:29 PM

Speed Blood knot is not a true Blood Knot. The twists around the standing line go in the same direction on each side of the knot and both tag ends go through the center the same way. In fact any similar knot like the toothpick version of the knot that places equal turns on each side will be weaker than a true blood knot.

 

The toothpick knot and the speed blood knot are not true blood knots. I have "not" seen any tests of these "knots" against a true blood knot so I guess if it works for you that is great. I tie my blood knots the old fashioned way and the reason I do so is explained below.

 

Here is an illustration of a blood knot and you can see that the way the lines are wound around each other is "not" reversed in a blood knot.

 

blood-knot.jpg

 

The reason I tie a true blood knot is a blood knot test I read in Fly Fisherman Magazine many years ago. They tested the blood knot trying a different number of turns on each side of the knot. The tester found that what was crucial was that the turns on each side of the knot should grab the same amount of the standing line. 

 

If we make an equal number of wraps of the line on each side, the thinner and weaker line will be "grabbing" a shorter section of the thicker line. When one side of the knot grabs a shorter section of line than the other side, the knot is more likely to fail. So it is not the number of turns that must match, but the length of line that is grabbed on each side. This means make an extra turn with the thinner line when the diameters differ. Note that each of the fast ways of tying the blood know always use the same number of turns on each side.

 

The second criteria for the best blood knot in this test was that there should be no less than 4 turns and no more than 6 turns. Fewer than 4 turns or more than 6 resulted in weaker knots. When the line diameters varied so much that you could not get a balanced knot with 6 turns on one side and 4 on the other, you would not get the best knot.

 

It is not that the diameters should vary by .002" of less but the relative difference in diameters. I use a 1/3 difference as a rule. The thinner section of line should be no more than 1/3 diameter thinner.

 

 

 

 

 


Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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#11 redietz

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 11:03 PM

Am I the only person in the world that finds the blood knot to be one of the easier knots to tie?  


Bob


#12 Poopdeck

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 05:44 PM

Yep it's a different knot. I simply want something easy and secure and the speed blood knot seems to have both over the traditional blood knot. I cannot come up with any reason to tie a more complicated knot when I don't have to.

Redietz, can you play the piano as well? My finger dexterity and my aging eyes has made tying the traditional blood knot a thing of the past. I was never very good at tying the blood knot because of my uncoordinated fingers but I could do it. Now, I have a hard time seeing the end of the line and loops. I take my glasses on and off and try magnification with and with out glasses and it's just annoying as hell and I'm never very confident with the finished product until the first fish is caught, or lost.

#13 tjm

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 07:57 PM

The Davy knot is a simple figure eight knot that sailors call a 'stopper'. Tie it with out the hook a few times or using a shoelace/paracord and you will begin to appreciate simple, the Orvis knot starts as a figure eight knot and the gets a couple of turns back through one loop of the 8. 

I don't dislike or have real trouble tying the blood knot but have found the grapevine bend just as useful and much easier to use in leader building outside.



#14 phg

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:43 PM

I use to do blood knots, when building leaders, but have long since switched to the double surgeons knot.  Super easy to tie.  I can do it in a howling gale with half frozen frozen fingers, and the "kink" that most people complain about doesn't even show in the water.



#15 Poopdeck

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 07:28 PM

The kink is my hang up with the double surgeon knot. Maybe it's time for me to get over the kink as the double surgeon checks the boxes I need checked.