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Mono rigging


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#16 JSzymczyk

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 06:06 AM

46 foot leader?     Given that probably 6 of 10 people waving a fly rod can not cast 46 feet with a "normal" leader, and probably 8 of ten cannot  cast 46 feet with any accuracy, use of this gear is way out on the edge of usability.   Great if that is what gets you through the day, but when we sift through the volumes of explanation and rationalization, we get back to the basic question of "what is fly fishing?"    Does it matter?    At this point in life, I don't think I give a crap any more :D :D :D     If I'm not mistaken, Pennsylvania has a regulation (and that by no means defines anything ... except if you happen to be standing in it) that a fly tackle leader can not be longer than 18 feet?   or 16 feet?  

 

anyway, I rather like the idea expressed above about using a jig as an anchor and a nymph as a dropper.    I think a quarter-ounce jig would be about right. 


the gales of November remembered...


#17 Sandan

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 11:41 AM

SilverCreek,

 

Because an article/post/blog doesn't meet with your particular set of criteria doesn't necessarily mean it isn't valuable.  The troutbitten guys, while not measuring up to your parameters for lumpers/splitters/the title of an article not being specific enough, doesn't mean what is presented isn't informative nor valuable.  In the search for increasing knowledge I found some of what they said good and accurate and some not so much.  We look at what's being presented and we take what's good and discard what's bad.

(note: a fired of mine fishes with the troutbitten guys quite often and they are helluva fishers. Strictly with fly gear. Not that I'm taking their position out of any partisan relationship, Iv'e never fished with those guys nor do I know them).  I will say this the troutbitten blog has caused me to sometimes re-evaluate technique/tactics.  That I believe has resulted in my becoming a better, more knowledgeable fisherman.  Again, I'm not arguing just saying what I think. Your comments are greatly appreciated.



#18 SilverCreek

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 11:55 AM



46 foot leader?     Given that probably 6 of 10 people waving a fly rod can not cast 46 feet with a "normal" leader, and probably 8 of ten cannot  cast 46 feet with any accuracy, use of this gear is way out on the edge of usability.   

 

 

The purpose of a 45 foot leader is NOT so the angler can make a 45 ft cast. The 46 ft leader is so there is always leader in the rod guides. For example, with a 25 ft cast using a 11.5 ft rod, there would still be leader on the reel and through the guides.

 

Fly line has greater mass than leader. So fly line in the guides creates two problems. The first is line sage which creates slack and slack reduces contact with the flies. The second thing that fly line mass does is the the sag drags the nymph toward the rod tip creating drag. The higher the rod tip is elevated, the more sag and and drag is created. The farther the cast, the higher the rod has to be elevated.

 

So the long leader solves the problem of line sag, without needing to buy a thin competition nymph line. You are correct that few casters can cast the leader 45 feet but that is not the purpose of the 45 ft leader.

 

Devin Olsen of the US Fly Fishing team discusses the advantages of a thin long leader long rods when contact nymphing here:

 

”As I said above, these calculations were done specifically with a micro thin leader to achieve the least sag and furthest reach. The numbers would change with thicker leader formulas but the reach benefit of longer rods would still persist.”

 

http://www.tacticalf...ry-perspective/

 

brian-wallowa-2.jpg?t=1501689164




Regards,

Silver

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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#19 whatfly

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 12:48 PM

Nice troll.



#20 goofnoff

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 03:25 PM

Nice troll.

 

I must have missed something.  Who is trolling?  



#21 goofnoff

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 04:09 PM

Before fist fights start over this thread I've got to tell you a story.

 

I knew a guy in Syracuse, which is where I'm from, who was part owner of a fly shop,  Now this guy had a degree in food science from Cornell. His first job out of college was going around the wineries in the Finger Lakes testing the wines.  He gave that up to be a trout bum.  His girlfriend was taking a PhD at Cornell in ichthyology.  Her paper was on tumors in brown bullheads. She could not ever figure out why there was any difference in fishing for trout and bullheads. Things didn't work out for them.  

 

Point being I never knock the way another man fishes or what he fishes for as long as it isn't environmentally damaging and within the rules.  

 

Tell you another story.  Back in the early 70's a guy wrote an article for Sports Afield about how to catch big trout.  In the story he revealed every bait fishing technique of which I was aware and I knew most of them.  His own favorite method was to go out at the crack of dawn with a Countdown Rapala.  He'd find a spot where the the stream narrowed creating a heavy current. He'd fish where the current broke into a pool. He'd throw the Rapala straight upstream and crank it down  a little faster than the current would push it. Said it was murder on big trout.  He mentioned it was his favorite way to fish the Battenkill.  A couple of years later I was fishing the Battenkill for the first time in my life when here comes a couple of guys in a canoe. When they got opposite me they asked if I wanted some Rapalas. They'd been picking them off trees and they didn't fish. Later I heard the locals called it the Rapala Hatch.  The writer of that story became the editor of Fly Fisherman magazine. 

 

The reason I bring this up is a few years later Fly Fisherman had an article on streamer fishing. The author said the deadliest way to fish a streamer, and his favorite streamer was a Wooly Bugger, was to throw the Bugger straight upstream, stick the rod tip into the bottom and strip straight own stream.   I've never tried it but I might with a mono rig. 

 

Leonard Wright wrote Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect".   He developed his "sudden inch" technique because he hated nymph fishing. The sudden inchwould raise trout when no hatch was on.  His problem with nymph fishing was the concentration required to be good at upstream nymphing.  

 

There is a lot of ways to catch a trout.  Because one or the other is not to your taste, it doesn't make it wrong.  

 

Tight lines



#22 mikechell

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 05:54 PM

Nymph fishing in general is just bait fishing with a fly rod.  

 

 

Point being I never knock the way another man fishes or what he fishes for as long as it isn't environmentally damaging and within the rules.  

 

There is a lot of ways to catch a trout.  Because one or the other is not to your taste, it doesn't make it wrong.  

Actually, goofnoff, you're the only one who DID knock another way to fish for trout.


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#23 JSzymczyk

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 09:23 PM

 



46 foot leader?     Given that probably 6 of 10 people waving a fly rod can not cast 46 feet with a "normal" leader, and probably 8 of ten cannot  cast 46 feet with any accuracy, use of this gear is way out on the edge of usability.   

 

 

The purpose of a 45 foot leader is NOT so the angler can make a 45 ft cast. The 46 ft leader is so there is always leader in the rod guides. For example, with a 25 ft cast using a 11.5 ft rod, there would still be leader on the reel and through the guides.

 

Fly line has greater mass than leader. So fly line in the guides creates two problems. The first is line sage which creates slack and slack reduces contact with the flies. The second thing that fly line mass does is the the sag drags the nymph toward the rod tip creating drag. The higher the rod tip is elevated, the more sag and and drag is created. The farther the cast, the higher the rod has to be elevated.

 

So the long leader solves the problem of line sag, without needing to buy a thin competition nymph line. You are correct that few casters can cast the leader 45 feet but that is not the purpose of the 45 ft leader.

 

Devin Olsen of the US Fly Fishing team discusses the advantages of a thin long leader long rods when contact nymphing here:

 

”As I said above, these calculations were done specifically with a micro thin leader to achieve the least sag and furthest reach. The numbers would change with thicker leader formulas but the reach benefit of longer rods would still persist.”

 

http://www.tacticalf...ry-perspective/

 

brian-wallowa-2.jpg?t=1501689164

 


 

I know Doc.... Sarcasm does not come across AT ALL in forum posts.    Stick a spinning reel on an 11 or 12 foot rod and do the same EXACT thing as guys are doing with these Spanish/French/Euro nymphing outfits and all of a sudden it becomes blasphemous.    It's all BS.    Trout are not any holier than any other fish.   Go have fun.  


the gales of November remembered...


#24 JSzymczyk

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 09:29 PM

Before fist fights start over this thread

 

what?   not unless someone insults my Mom, my beloved Service, my flies, or my wife... in that order...


the gales of November remembered...


#25 Poopdeck

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 10:43 PM

I would think that team USA fly fishing would actually fly fish in the purest form. They can redefine it or describe it however they like but one could make an equally compelling case that's it's spin fishing with a fly rod. I like fly fishing and spin fishing but I have no desire to combine the two. Maybe it should be called fly spinning. Regardless, enjoy as you see fit and call it whatever you like.

For the record, I really don't care what it is and I'm only posting a response because my power is out, it's dark in my house, I'm wide awake and I'm bored out of my mind.

#26 goofnoff

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 10:51 PM

Thanks for the info SC.  Great article.  The idea of short line fishing isn't new. I can remember reading an article years ago where the writer said he couldn't imagine a worse torture than fishing with your arm over your head all day.  

 

The bait fisherman of my youth fished worms and minnows with fly rods.  The game was always figuring out how to work a pool without spooking the fish. I learned early on that the only advantage of bait over flies is trout will hold onto bait.  I think with nymphs presentation is 95% of the game.  In 1967,Joe Brooks did a USO presentation at Rhein Main AFB in Frankfurt. One of my buddies got a couple of his German friends to give us a ride to the show.  I asked Brooks how he presented nymphs.  Brooks  said he rarely fished nymphs and then he fished them like wet flies, or with the Skues method.  



#27 vicente

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 10:53 PM

Hahaha my power went out yesterday in the middle of ripping this stupid partial wall out of my kitchen and putting up a new range, I'm thankful I own cordless versions of all the essential tools.

#28 goofnoff

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 10:54 PM

I would think that team USA fly fishing would actually fly fish in the purest form. They can redefine it or describe it however they like but one could make an equally compelling case that's it's spin fishing with a fly rod. I like fly fishing and spin fishing but I have no desire to combine the two. Maybe it should be called fly spinning. Regardless, enjoy as you see fit and call it whatever you like.

For the record, I really don't care what it is and I'm only posting a response because my power is out, it's dark in my house, I'm wide awake and I'm bored out of my mind.

 

 

Do you fish nymphs or streamers? If So how do you present them?  

 

Several people have expressed the same opinion. 



#29 goofnoff

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 11:38 PM

46 foot leader?     Given that probably 6 of 10 people waving a fly rod can not cast 46 feet with a "normal" leader, and probably 8 of ten cannot  cast 46 feet with any accuracy, use of this gear is way out on the edge of usability.   Great if that is what gets you through the day, but when we sift through the volumes of explanation and rationalization, we get back to the basic question of "what is fly fishing?"    Does it matter?    At this point in life, I don't think I give a crap any more biggrin.pngbiggrin.pngbiggrin.png     If I'm not mistaken, Pennsylvania has a regulation (and that by no means defines anything ... except if you happen to be standing in it) that a fly tackle leader can not be longer than 18 feet?   or 16 feet?  

 

anyway, I rather like the idea expressed above about using a jig as an anchor and a nymph as a dropper.    I think a quarter-ounce jig would be about right. 

Quarter ounce would be a bit heavy.  A sixteenth ounce and down is the usual prescription.  



#30 Poopdeck

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:09 AM

Light line nymphing, direct contact, heavy line this that or the other, it's all fishing. I throw my nymph out there and sometimes it's on a slack line sometimes it on a tight line, light line, blah blah blah. I mostly almost always stay in direct contact with nymphs. We all do we just never gave it a specific term to justify that we are actually fly fishing.

It's nothing more then fishing and it makes me wonder why people have a need to justify what they are doing. The answer is really simple... if you are in a fly fishing tournament and your only fly fishing because of the rod you have and there's something that passes as a nymph on the end of it, you have to twist what your doing into fly fishing. isnt fly line an important part of the process? actually highlights the joke of tournament fishing.

Power still out.