Jump to content


 Welcome to FlyTyingForum.com


FlyTyingForum.com is the largest fly tying community in the world and we hope you take a moment to register for a free account and join this amazingly friendly and helpful group of anglers. FTF has over 12,000 registered members that have made over 300,000 posts and have uploaded over 6,000 patterns to our exclusive fly pattern database!

If you are an experienced fly tier or just starting out FTF is the perfect place to call home. Click Here To Register for a Free Account

Fly Pattern Database / Browse by Topics / Browse by Material / Fly Tying Bench Database / Fly Fishing & Tying Videos / FTFCurrent(NEW!)
Featured Products: Fly Tying Hooks / Fly Tying Scissors / Waterproof Fly Boxes
Photo

fly tying hooks


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 flytire

flytire

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,325 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 02:40 PM

why do fly tying hooks get an odd number size designation?

example

tiemco 102y size 17
Fly tiers sure have a way of making things complicated

#2 Fred H.

Fred H.

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,580 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 03:37 PM

Good question. I just bought some patrige hooks size 9 . They were from Europe . But I think there may be more to the odd number than that. Someone here will know .
Fred
"My head is a prison, my times on the water are conjugal visits" Fred Hannie

visit my website http://www.realisticflytying.net

#3 Arkansas Mike

Arkansas Mike

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,257 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 04:52 PM

Now...a word of warning...I may be completely out in left field here, there may be a much simpler explanation, but from what I understand reading about the history of fly fishing, it started back in the early nineteenth century when the first large-scale manufacturing of hooks began. There were a number of competing scales to compare the various manufacturers hook sizes, one of which was a Redditch scale ranging from 1 to 16, with 16 the smallest. 1-7 were salmon sizes, 8-16 were trout sizes. At one time there were at least five different hook scale systems in operation: Carlisle, Kendal, O’Shaughnessy Limerick, Dublin (or Philips) Limerick, and Sell of Dublin. Maybe modern hook scales still base theirs on an old Redditch scale? Scales used a number of methods of hook measurement: the overall length, the length of the straight part of the shank and width of the gape, among others. Today, hook size is determined by the gape, not by the length of the shank. Still doesn't explain why the Tiemco 102y, a wide-gap "black" dry fly hook, comes in odd numbers (11-21) and other wide-gapes don't.


You know what flytire...I don't know.



Mike

#4 halcyon

halcyon

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 06:15 PM

In the case of the 102Y hooks the reason for the odd size numbers is because the hooks have a shank length equal to a standard Tiemco dry fly hook the next even number size smaller and the hook gape of the next even size larger. Thus, for example, the size 17 102Y has a shank length of a size 18 std Tiemco dry fly hook and the hook gape of a size 16 std Tiemco dry fly hook. Arkansas Mike is correct about the old and new hook size scales and the fact that traditionally the hook size was determined by hook gape, there being a ratio of hook gape to shank length that then determined the shank length. Today only one hook size scale is used but each manufacturer sets it's own relationship standards for each style of hook they make. Thus a Std dry fly hook and a Std wet fly hook and a Std nymph hook by the same manufacturer all have different gape/size and different gape/shank ratios for each style. Thus a size 32 Tiemco midge hook is two sizes larger than the now discontinued size 32 Mustad midge hook and both are differently sized per hook size from the Partridge Vince Marinaro midge hook. Then of course there are the hooks with humped shanks like the Tiemco 200R, the Partridge Bartleet, the various celebrity name steelhead hooks by Diichi, etc. Isn't fly tying fun blink.gif

In addition, pattern books make size confusing because they seldom give more than something like dry fly size 16. Depending on when the book was published and the pattern originator's favorite hook maker this could be a Mustad 94840 size 16, a Tiemco 100 size 16, a Partridge Captain Hamilton dry fly size 16, etc. All of these hooks have different shank lengths, hook gapes, and bend styles. Hell, you would almost think hook sizing was set up by politicians yahoo.gif
I have so often met ardent anglers throwing flies of such wondrous deformity,... (Lt.-Col. John Henry Hale, 1863 - 1950)




#5 letumgo

letumgo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,386 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 06:21 PM

The odd size hooks are for left handed tyers... j_k.gif laugh.gif

(just kidding)
http://www.flytyingf...gettyer=letumgo

Ray (letumgo) <°)((((><<

#6 flytire

flytire

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,325 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 07:53 PM

so does the redditch scale shown in figure 4 still hold up today??

http://books.google....m...lt&resnum=1
Fly tiers sure have a way of making things complicated

#7 Horseshoes

Horseshoes

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,273 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 08:12 PM

QUOTE (letumgo @ Jul 24 2009, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The odd size hooks are for left handed tyers... j_k.gif laugh.gif

(just kidding)



hysterical.gif j_k.gif
 
When in Nova Scotia stop into JD's Bows & Guns

#8 lykos33

lykos33

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,512 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 08:33 PM

QUOTE (letumgo @ Jul 24 2009, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The odd size hooks are for left handed tyers... j_k.gif laugh.gif

(just kidding)


Momma always said there'd be one in every group..... hysterical.gif

I'll fish for anything I tell ya!!!
Murray Buck

#9 halcyon

halcyon

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 24 July 2009 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE (flytire @ Jul 24 2009, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
so does the redditch scale shown in figure 4 still hold up today??

http://books.google....m...lt&resnum=1



The answer is YES and NO. It is the accepted standard now. But as mentioned in the paragraph that spans Fig. 4, each manufacturer modifies it to suit their own design and marketing ideas.
But even this "standard" it goes out the window all together when you have humped or bend hook shanks like the Mustad English Bait Hook used for many years for curved shank fly patterns, the pupa and scud hooks popular today, Bartleet and other curved shank salmon and steelhead hooks and hooks designed to tie Bass and Pike/Muskie flies on for example. Are we having fun yet rolleyes.gif

I would suggest however, none of these hook scale and sizing methodologies really matter to the fly tyer. The fly tyer decides what he wants to tie, how he wishes it to look as far as proportion, materials, and style and then choses a hook that provides the proper sized foundation to built that particular set of desired parameters into the fly. Today we as fly tyers have an unprecedented assortment of hooks to choose from. There are hundreds of styles, sizes, colors, finishes, wire sizes, bend designs, eye configurations, etc. The ability to choose the perfect foundation for your flies has not been better except when the old Partridge company was producing so many special custom hooks in the 80's and 90's.
I have so often met ardent anglers throwing flies of such wondrous deformity,... (Lt.-Col. John Henry Hale, 1863 - 1950)




#10 maddog48

maddog48

    I Am My River's Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,355 posts

Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:01 AM

I like how the Redditch scale shows that odd sizes are figured into a XS shank. Like a size 20 with a 2XShort shank has a shank length of a size 22 hook and not a 24 like I had been mistakenly believing.


Mike
Procrastinate now. Don't put it off.

#11 halcyon

halcyon

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:44 AM

QUOTE (maddog48 @ Jul 24 2009, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I like how the Redditch scale shows that odd sizes are figured into a XS shank. Like a size 20 with a 2XShort shank has a shank length of a size 22 hook and not a 24 like I had been mistakenly believing.


Mike


The same has always applied to XL shanks also. Thus a 2X long size 12 has a shank length that is the length of a size 10 not a size 8 for example
I have so often met ardent anglers throwing flies of such wondrous deformity,... (Lt.-Col. John Henry Hale, 1863 - 1950)




#12 maddog48

maddog48

    I Am My River's Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,355 posts

Posted 25 July 2009 - 12:54 PM

Never thought of it that way. Good point. headbang.gif


Mike
Procrastinate now. Don't put it off.

#13 Runarsson

Runarsson

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 112 posts

Posted 25 July 2009 - 05:23 PM

QUOTE (halcyon @ Jul 24 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
//..//
Thus a size 32 Tiemco midge hook is two sizes larger than the now discontinued size 32 Mustad midge hook and both are differently sized per hook size from the Partridge Vince Marinaro midge hook.
//..//

For those who have never seen this (infamous) Mustad 277... here are a couple of pics showing a Mustad 277 and a TMC518 (both #32's) together for comparison:



(In millimeters)


/Nick

#14 halcyon

halcyon

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 25 July 2009 - 06:26 PM

Runarsson,
Thanks for posting the photos. A really clear example how different makers view hook sizing. The Mustad also clearly shows what a spade "eye" hook looks like. I don't believe that style of hook as been sold in the USA for over a century other than the Mustad 277 when it was available and when it one was added to each cardboard box of Mustad fly tying hooks years ago.
I have so often met ardent anglers throwing flies of such wondrous deformity,... (Lt.-Col. John Henry Hale, 1863 - 1950)




#15 Runarsson

Runarsson

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 112 posts

Posted 25 July 2009 - 09:38 PM

QUOTE (halcyon @ Jul 25 2009, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Runarsson,
Thanks for posting the photos. A really clear example how different makers view hook sizing. The Mustad also clearly shows what a spade "eye" hook looks like. I don't believe that style of hook as been sold in the USA for over a century other than the Mustad 277 when it was available and when it one was added to each cardboard box of Mustad fly tying hooks years ago.

You can't trust hook sizes... you can't trust thread sizes. Fly-tying sure is an insecure bizniz. tongue.gif