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Which USA State has the most the most recorded Mayflies (162 species)


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Poll: Which State Has The Most Mayflies

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#16 SearchingSolitude

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 08:39 PM

QUOTE (JSzymczyk @ Mar 31 2010, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Taxon @ Mar 21 2010, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (JSzymczyk @ Mar 21 2010, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"subspecies" .... hysterical.gif boxing.gif

Please permit me to explain. Mayfly Central, which is the recognized authority on mayfly taxonomy in N. America, maintains the list of current N. American species. However, in cases where there is a recognized subspecies, it is listed at that level, rather than at the species level. For example, it lists both Callibaetis ferrugineus ferrugineus (a northeastern subspecies) and Callibaetis ferrugineus hageni (a western subspecies), but does not list Callibaetis ferrugineus. As a result, when one wants to count only valid species, it becomes necessary to eliminate both of the above subspecies, and add only a single species. The N. American Species List can be accessed by clicking here.


I know. Being a long-time lepidoptera guy (and also "serious amateur" herpetology guy), I have come to find the concept of subspecies to be, well, maybe not exactly a load of crap, but quite often simply a means for professional biologists to justify their jobs.

My overwhelming case-in-point, Homo sapiens. If we apply the SCIENCE of cladistics and systematics to our own species the way we do to everything else, we'd have at least 5 subspecies. But NOOOOOO!!!! that would be politically incorrect. Meanwhile, every time someone at a university swings a net at a Tiger Swallowtail in someone else's back yard, they describe it as a subspecies. If we can't apply the theory across the biological realm, what good is it? I have been ANGRILY rebuked in public by Piled-higher and Deeper brainiacs for bringing up this very topic. Good fun, every time~!



I like this! What are the five "sub species"...political correctness be damned? Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, ????????? I am at a loss. Or am I off base with my delineations? What is the rebuke by the phD's? What do they say to dispute it?


-Searching!
"Calling Fly Fishing a hobby is like calling Brain Surgery a job."
"Some go to church and think about fishing, I go fishing and think about God."

#17 TitanFlies

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 10:32 PM

Hey... Taxon, saying that it cant be applied to a science doesn't mean it doesn't deserve attention.
"If the author of the Declaration of Independence were to utter such a sentiment today, the Post Office Department could exclude him from the mail, grand juries could indict him for sedition and criminal syndicalism, legislative committees could seize his private papers... and United States Senators would be clamoring for his deportation that he... should be sent back to live with the rest of the terrorists." -Frank Cobb


#18 JSzymczyk

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 05:02 PM

QUOTE (SearchingSolitude @ Jun 4 2010, 07:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (JSzymczyk @ Mar 31 2010, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Taxon @ Mar 21 2010, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (JSzymczyk @ Mar 21 2010, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"subspecies" .... hysterical.gif boxing.gif

Please permit me to explain. Mayfly Central, which is the recognized authority on mayfly taxonomy in N. America, maintains the list of current N. American species. However, in cases where there is a recognized subspecies, it is listed at that level, rather than at the species level. For example, it lists both Callibaetis ferrugineus ferrugineus (a northeastern subspecies) and Callibaetis ferrugineus hageni (a western subspecies), but does not list Callibaetis ferrugineus. As a result, when one wants to count only valid species, it becomes necessary to eliminate both of the above subspecies, and add only a single species. The N. American Species List can be accessed by clicking here.


I know. Being a long-time lepidoptera guy (and also "serious amateur" herpetology guy), I have come to find the concept of subspecies to be, well, maybe not exactly a load of crap, but quite often simply a means for professional biologists to justify their jobs.

My overwhelming case-in-point, Homo sapiens. If we apply the SCIENCE of cladistics and systematics to our own species the way we do to everything else, we'd have at least 5 subspecies. But NOOOOOO!!!! that would be politically incorrect. Meanwhile, every time someone at a university swings a net at a Tiger Swallowtail in someone else's back yard, they describe it as a subspecies. If we can't apply the theory across the biological realm, what good is it? I have been ANGRILY rebuked in public by Piled-higher and Deeper brainiacs for bringing up this very topic. Good fun, every time~!



I like this! What are the five "sub species"...political correctness be damned? Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, ????????? I am at a loss. Or am I off base with my delineations? What is the rebuke by the phD's? What do they say to dispute it?


-Searching!


Without dragging it out too far, there isn't really any universally accepted definition of what a "subspecies" actually IS- for every egghead who religiously (yes, religiously) holds to a set of rules including the subspecific ideas, there is another boffin who disputes it, countering with the concepts of races, forms, populations, etc.

In the vast world of entomology, there are people who are just giddy with excitement to be able to publish a paper describing a subspecies of a known species. Mostly people working in Academia- you've heard it before of these types, "Publish or Perish"... In the high-dollar butterfly collecting world, especially of the Ornithoptera- the huge beautiful Birdwing Butterflies from the tropical Western Pacific, subpsecific identities have been assigned to flies from different valleys and mountains within a few miles of each other!! The subspecies concept used to be applied with the considerations of morphology and geography... Some barrier would exist between populations so they couldn't easily mix genetically, yet they are for all intents and purposes the same genetically- the same species. They may have somewhat different coloration or other minor physical characteristics, supposedly caused by isolation and evolution, but if they were able to make contact their offspring would be viable and able to produce more offspring. So you can go backwards and see that at some time in the distant past a group of the same species became separated geographically and it may even be a gradual thing where the alleged barriers are very porous.

Take an insect such as a Tiger Swallowtail butterfly and look at it throughout the eastern half of North America. There is quite a physical difference between average individuals from northern Florida compared to central Ontario. They're the same animal, but several subspecies are assigned based on where they live and "normal" size, coloration, and maculation. Under "natural" conditions, it would be nearly impossible for an Ontario one to meet and mate with a Florida one, but if it happened they would produce viable offspring. It's been done over and over in research. (Don't shoot holes in my example, it's only an example, and the P. glaucus canadensis "subspecies" has been elevated to specific status then demoted back to subspecific status more than once.)

Someone who really knows a lot about Gray Banded Kingsnakes can look at one in a terrarium in Baltimore for example, and tell you with pretty good certainty whether it came from Alpine Texas or Carlsbad New Mexico based on how it LOOKS.

So the main question really is, what the hell is a "subspecies"??? More or less just something to write on a tag so individuals can be GROUPED in a box, DISCRIMINATED between one another, and categorized based on APPEARANCE and ORIGIN. Nothing wrong with that at all, as long as we apply it only to bugs and reptiles and crawly or swimmy things or even White-Tailed Deer... but it forces us to put segments of a species into their own boxes. That is where the meltdown occurs when we get to the species named Homo sapiens. The concept of subspecies REQUIRES prejudice. The brainiacs friggin' HATE that!! How can we apply it within the confines of biology? OH My Gosh... we absolutely CANNOT put any member of Homo sapiens in their own box, even if the vast majority of them WANT to be left in their own boxes!!! Five is a drastically low number of how many subspecies of humans there would be if the concept of subspecies was applied across the biological realm. I said five, it was a number I had heard tossed about before, but it's way low.

In the NATURAL world, could an Unangan ever contact and reproduce with a Kung San Bushman in the Kalahari? Realistically, no, but one could get on a plane in Adak and fly to Namibia and get to work. Is that natural genetic mixing? Is technology a natural part of the Homo sapiens species? Is the average Scandinavian Caucasoid different in appearance from the average Equatorial African Negroid?

My OPINION is that things are either separate species, or they are the same species. Subspecies don't really exist. To other, much more qualified people than I, subspecies are totally valid. If it helps them compartmentalize things, good for them, but I do wish it would either be applied across the board or dropped completely.

the gales of November remembered...


#19 BigDaddyHub

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 08:29 PM

my hillbilly head hurts unsure.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif
Hug your daughters, or someone else will.

#20 JSzymczyk

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 08:53 AM

Sometimes I think that these kinds of worries are why I have high blood pressure... hysterical.gif

the gales of November remembered...


#21 Mr. Vegas

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 06:13 PM

QUOTE (troutdogg @ Mar 31 2010, 09:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OK, here's the answer ..........

New York State with a total of 171 Mayfly with ME coming in second with 164!



QUOTE (BassBugs @ Nov 2 2010, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Death, Taxes, and Leaky Waders by John Gierach
One of my all time favorites



QUOTE (Bryan Wright @ Dec 1 2010, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I love the tye but even more I love your photography skills. yahoo.gif




ok someone needs to check idaho again
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#22 zug buggin

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 04:27 AM

I think I missed this one pretty bad
"Fly Fishing Is Not A Team Sport"----Tom McGuane

The fisherman now is one who defies society, who rips lips, who drains the pool, who takes no prisoners, who is not to be confused with the sissy with the creel and bamboo rod. Granted, he releases what he catches, but in some cases, he strips the quarry of its perilous soul before tossing it back in the water. What was once a trout – cold, hard, spotted and beautiful – becomes “number seven.”
Tom McGuane

#23 H.Champagne

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 10:04 AM

I went to culinary school in the Hudson Valley a few years back and some of my buddies and I would take weekend trips to the Catskill area and fish the Beaverkill and some of the other random streams around the Delaware river system and it was eye opening. We saw so many different types of bugs, I believe NY is up there if not the top for Mayfly diversity. Some of the streams in Upstate NY also, the Oatka and such are pretty intense too.
-Harold James Champagne II


"The best fisherman I know try not to make the same mistakes over and over again; instead they strive to make new and interesting mistakes and to remember what they learned from them." John Gierach

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#24 EricF

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:40 AM

Agreed with JSzymczyk on the subspecies debate. I also miss-spent much of my youth studying this stuff, and my experience suggests that the state with the most mayfly species is the state with the most recent entomologist studying mayflies at the local university. I'm not surprised that NY is high with Cornell Univ - one of the best entomology schools in the country. Maine has me scratching my head (being a Mainer it often has me scratching my head) and I wonder if there is a prof at one of the universities who is interested in Mayflies. Well, that's my two cents.

#25 Goldenflies

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:29 AM

Man, I thought I was doing good to be able to name three or four species of butterflies and a few other insects as well as a couple dozen snakes and wild animals. After reading JSzymczyk's dissertation, I am pretty sure I am at a preschool level and am basically calling everything a bug. My head hurts now and all I wanted was a nice picture of a sulfur (somethingius buggius).

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#26 ColindaFlyguy

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:46 PM

i can say the sate IL ( the state i live in) has very little mayfly hatches. i saw a yellow sally or big yellow mayfly. i am not sure on how many mayflies are native to IL but if looking at vote..and knowing what i know i would pick:  Michigan, Colorado, New york,and California as the states with the most mayflies. if i had to pic on how many mayflies there are in USA   but..don't forget canada. and alaska. North america mayflies should include canada and alaska. just as a side note :) 



#27 phg

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:59 AM

Actually, a state like NC or VA should rank at the top.  We have a much more varied climate ranging from tropical in the southeast to alpine in the west.  There are lots of warm water and still water mayflies as well as the more storied cold water species. 

 

Maybe we can encourage NC State U to do a new survey so we can have the top spot, temporarily.... tongue.png



#28 bellevue.chartreuse.trout

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:21 PM

They have a pill for that JSzy (hehe.. God I hope you take this humorously.. lol)

BCT