20 replies to this topic

[Curtis Fry]

So I'm working on some shrimp patterns for Bonefish. I'm a newbie when it comes to Bonefish patterns, so I apologize for the stupid question. But I've seen some existing shrimp patterns that ride "rightside up" (legs down) and are backward facing. My question is, assuming we're imitating a fleeing shrimp and they move "backwards", are they also "upside down" when fleeing? Patterns like the Crazy Charlie or Gotcha seem to be oriented upside down (i.e legs etc facing up), while the fly is retrieved, giving it the motion of moving backwards.

I hope I'm making sense. Just trying to find out which way is up and what's coming and/or going.

[phg]

A lot of it depends on where the weight is. If you use dumbbell or bead chain eyes, then the hook is going to flip over and ride point up. Given that, it only makes sense to tie the fly so the back of the shrimp is on the underside of the hook.

If you have a more buoyant pattern that's going to ride with the hook point down, then you tie your fly with the back of the shrimp on top of the hook.

Either way, though, most shrimp and crayfish patterns have the head of the fly toward the bend of the hook.

[tidewaterfly]

Curtis, you have to keep in mind that the majority of these types of flies are intended to be fished on the bottom in fairly shallow water. Flats type flies can be representing anything that the various fish species who are there may eat. That may be shrimp, crabs, or even baitfish. They're best tied with the hook point up to help prevent snagging on the bottom, and since many flats fish will attempt to pin what they eat to the bottom, it just makes sense to have the point up towards the fish.

Bonefish, and other fish, don't know if a shrimp fly is upside down or not, especially when it's on the bottom. The body gives the fly the impression of a shrimp or something else, although the hair may represent legs to us, when tied on the back it simply gives it movement & action. It's not necessary to be overly realistic, and it really doesn't matter what the fish mistakes a fly to be. The fish are used to chasing prey that swims away, so they don't always get to see a complete profile. Prey often tries to escape & will be using the grass or mud they stir up to hide themselves. Bonefish, Redfish or whatever don't usually get a good look at their prey. So much the better for anglers.

Now there are patterns that are made with the hook down, for example Popovics Ultra Shrimp, which has a more defined shrimp profile. They can be fished on the bottom, but are usually best when fished near the bottom or in open water. Even then at times they'll be turned upside down by the currents. Again, this is not always unnatural, because some predator fish, like Striped Bass, are used to seeing prey that is swept away in currents, and often take advantage of it.

How we perceive a fly & how the fish see it are not necessarily the same!
'

[Curtis Fry]

Good information fellas. I appreciate it!!

[Kirk Dietrich]

I'm with Tidewater, I like impressionistic over realistic - I think that is what Tide was eluding to.
I would like to add that contrary to popular belief, lead eyes on top of a hook do not automatically turn it over to ride hook point up if the materials tied on to the hook do things to counteract that new center of gravity. Meaning, that if fluffy materials are tied on the same side of the hook as the lead eyes, those materials will grab water and parachute the fly down hook point down counteracting the counterweight of the lead eyes. The exception being if the eyes are big enough to not let that happen but believe me, the power of the natural flow of things is hard to over come. Many, many patterns that are tied with the intention of riding hook point up and are advertised as such do no such thing when actually fished.
There are some ways to counter act the counter act. On flies that have a dubbed body, trim the top of the hook flatter than the hook gap side leaving more material on the hook gap side helps ensure the parachute action works in your favor.
Also, legs on the bottom of a fleeing shrimp fly, in my opinion, should suggest motion and not stiff little legs. A fleeing shrimp snaps its tail down to propel itself backwards in the process the tail folds under the body covering the legs and as he propels through the water. It is a very fast action and you see more of a shape of things than actual details and that shape is an oval with the long crawler forelegs trailing out to the rear under the head. Picture a squid but with a shorter body, it is oval with tentacles trailing. A fleeing shrimp has more of a squid shape to me.
They have these little furry kind of legs beneath their body much shorter than almost any hackle legged shrimp fly I've seen that they use to swim and cruise around with. Under the head are six or eight long jointed legs that they use to crawl along objects and grab stuff with. I'd say the little legs under the body are best imitated with small clumps of rabbit and the legs under the head with rubber hackle. That being said, realize I'm thinking the larger white and brown shrimp that redfish and speckled trout feed on.
Look at Panama Red's (or is it Tidewater's?) sparsely tied Clouser with rubber legs trailing out the back; probably a better shrimp impersonator than 95% of the alleged shrimp flies that look like shrimp. Also, FlyFishn'Jam has some pretty good shrimp impersonators kind of on the line of Charlie Craven's shrimp thing.

Kirk

[perchjerker]

The direct answer to your basic question is: NO! They DO NOT swim 'up-side down' when fleeing a predator; neither does a crayfish, crab,or lobster, for that matter. They all have a dorsal and a ventral side, and normal movement , when swimming or crawling on the bottom, is for the dorsal side to be up.

However, it is NOT unusual to tie them with the hook orientation reversed; i.e. with the barb up to minimize snagging; and possibly to increase 'hook-ups'.

Kirk Has done a very good job of giving a general description of a shrimp, and how it moves. To his comments, I would add that a fleeing shrimp is just like the old saying about crayfish: "When in a hurry, they don't give a damn about seeing where they are going; they are just interested in seeing where they have been!" This explains why the majority of the shrimp patterns I am personally familiar with, as previously noted, the eye of the hook is at the tail of the fly, and the head at the bend. On the other hand, if it is out for a leisurely stroll, it moves headfirst; and the tail is, just like on a cow, always behind!

perchjerker

[Fred H.]

There is no single shrimp pattern that will cover every situation. I would not use the same pattern for blind casting a shoreline as I would sight casting redfish in two feet of gin clear water.For sight casting I use a realistic shrimp with the hook down at the head with little or no weight. I do not allow the fly to rest upon the bottom,instead, present the fly in front of the fish and give it a couple of six inch strips to have the fly immitate a backward flick of the shrimps tail.The strike usually comes on the fall.With floating line it is easy to maintain the fly in the short water coloumn much as you would when fishing for permit and bones.
But none of this matters if the fish don't believe what your throwing is something they want to eat.
Fred

[Kirk Dietrich]

...But none of this matters if the fish don't believe what your throwing is something they want to eat.
Fred

Yep, but you the fisher has to believe it first and second but more importantly, you have to know how to make it act like it is something the fish want to eat. I have sightcasted to and caught many redfish, black drum, and sheepshead on flies that have no realistic appearance to anything naturally occurring in their water. (Not including the spoon fly, even though I've caught all of the above species on that and have no idea what it looks like to the fish.) I'm talking more like streamers that you can say the redfish may mistake for baitfish but when a sheepshead that doesn't feed on baitfish eats the same fly worked a little differently, you've got to wonder what he thinks that bendback or Charlie is.
Of course that is coming from someone, me, that doesn't have the talent you do Fred in making realistics. Therefore, I haven't really fished realistics. Although when I was younger, I tried those rubber crickets and frogs and centerpedes and never had any luck on them so that may have disuaded me from pursuing tying realistics.
That being said, I would love to try a realistic shrimp or crab of yours on a sightcasting trip - although I'm sure my chances of that happening are greatly reduced with my expression of confidence in non-realistics. I'm open to new things and wouldn't mind experimenting. If you're interested in some of my bugs, maybe we can make a trade in Baton Rouge next month.

Kirk

[agn54]

(Not including the spoon fly, even though I've caught all of the above species on that and have no idea what it looks like to the fish.)

A spoon or spoon fly best imitates a pinfish or other baitfish. I used to wonder the same thing until I first went scalloping. I was snorkeling over a grass flat that was loaded with pinfish feeding on the grass tops. When their bodies would angle upwards, their sides would flash brightly in the sunlight, exactly as a spoon does. When you see it you will know exactly what I mean, and why a gold spoon works even better than a silver one especially in the more tannicy water of the gulf.

As for the shrimp, I agree with Fred that no pattern covers every situation. Sometimes it may be better to not use a fleeing shrimp but one in its natural shape. Many times I have sat on a catwalk or dock watching shrimp drift by in the current and then get popped by snook or trout before they knew what hit them. A fleeing shrimp pattern in the squid shape would look very different from all the natural shrimp drifting by. I also agree with Kirk on the small legs of the shrimp, which is why on shrimp gurglers I prefer to use estaz for the underbody than hackle. I like the idea of rabbit though, may have to give it a try.

[perchjerker]

Let me interject one here for all to ruminate on. I was in charge of a major redfish tagging project on upper Galveston Bay in the very early '80's, where we used conventional tackle for catching the fish. The rationale for using such tackle was to land them as rapidly as possible, get them measured, tagged and back in the water as fast as possible. For lures. we used "Kelly Wigglers", which consisted of a specially designed lead headed jig/hook to which a plastic shrimp tail was attached a la plastic worm style. I wish I had a tally of the number of redfish, and speckled trout, that I personally caught, to say nothing of the total caught by the group, using the jig/hook ONLY! NO shrimp tail attached!

What did such a simple thing represent to them as food?

I mention this experience to simply point out that it is futile to try to predict what a fish will, or will NOT do when it comes to feeding.

perchjerker

[Fred H.]

There are no doubt thousands upon thousands of stories of fish being taken on unusual lures or bare hooks.
And some times you could catch your limit on anything you cared to tie on to your line.But I think if your trying to design a new fly you may want to try to develope one that the fish will take when they don't feel especially cooperative. I think it's a worthy goal .

Kirk the confidence you have in streamers helps you to fish them better. We all fish a little harder and longer when we have conidence in the fly we're casting. But have you never had a fish stop short of the strike and refuse a fly ? Or have you ever had so much natural bait where they were feeding you could'nt buy a bite? I have . So we keep trying. That's part of the fun.
Fred

[FlyFishin'Jam]

Some excellent explanations here!!! I fish with both types of shrimps (hook up and down). 1 pattern i am particularly fond of is the 'supreme hair shrimp' it swims forwards hook point down

http://www.flyofthem...large/15255.jpg

- quite often it picks up a lot of weed and stuff on the bottom so i will choose a different pattern hook side up backwards swimming (weed guard sometimes). I think the fish are just picking up the profile. Anyway i am on a shrimp and crab frenzy this month

Oh Fred H makes an interesting point for discussion 'But have you never had a fish stop short of the strike and refuse a fly ?' Haha YES! I think the first thing i do before changing patterns is downsize my tippet or shock tippet, that usually seems to work, if that doesn't then i will start experimenting with smaller or different presentations.

Okay back to the shrimp farm.

[Voodoo]

i fish between the coral so i want my hook point up to i have less or a chance to catch bottom.

[Curtis Fry]

Thanks for the input. Here's what I came up with. I called it the "Chupacamaron"

[perchjerker]

Fred:

True; but, with regularity and consistency, as we were able to do?

The point of my story was to stress the fact that no single pattern will 'do it all'; whether it is a shrimp pattern or a minnow pattern, or midge. It must be remembered that fish are 'opportunistic' feeders, and will feed on whatever is available when they are in a feeding mood. Be it, in fact, a true food item, or something that only remotely resembles a real food item.

perchjerker