Jump to content


 Welcome to FlyTyingForum.com


FlyTyingForum.com is the largest fly tying community in the world and we hope you take a moment to register for a free account and join this amazingly friendly and helpful group of anglers. FTF has over 12,000 registered members that have made over 300,000 posts and have uploaded over 6,000 patterns to our exclusive fly pattern database!

If you are an experienced fly tier or just starting out FTF is the perfect place to call home. Click Here To Register for a Free Account

Fly Pattern Database / Browse by Topics / Browse by Material / Fly Tying Bench Database / Fly Fishing & Tying Videos / FTFCurrent(NEW!)
Featured Products: Fly Tying Hooks / Fly Tying Scissors / Waterproof Fly Boxes
Photo

knots


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 cruzfly89

cruzfly89

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 114 posts

Posted 14 September 2012 - 07:26 AM

I was listening to the orvis podcasts the other day and tom said that the improved clinch knot is actually weaker than the original clinch knot. The next day i was at work and was messing around with some fishing line tying a whole bunch of different knots to attach your fly to your line. Im just curious as to what everyone out there is using that they consider a strong knot that doesn't make the knot weak.
Cruz M.

#2 agn54

agn54

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,609 posts

Posted 14 September 2012 - 07:28 AM

I use a nail knot for leader butt to fly line, perfection loops for leader to leader butt and leader to tippet, and uni-knots for joining sections of leader together

#3 perchjerker

perchjerker

    Advanced Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,274 posts

Posted 14 September 2012 - 08:44 AM

Most, if not all, knots tied in monofilament are weaker than the material itself. This is just an inherent characteristic of nylon.

As far as the knot I use to attach hooks to tippets, I use the Improved Clinch Knot. Though I have not used it, the Davy Knot appears to have it's place in one's 'arsenal' of knots.

If the leading "theory" on knot failure in mono is correct, and I have no idea as to it's veracity, the heat-of-friction generated when it slides across/over itself, especially while being drawn tight, is the culprit. This is why it is recommended to moisten the material before drawing a knot tight. The moisture 'supposedly' helps cool it. If all of this is true, it seems to stand to reason that a knot with as few points where the material can rub against itself while being tightened would be the strongest.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Cheers!

#4 Peterjay

Peterjay

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,923 posts

Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:04 AM

The bimini twist is actually stronger than the material, and there are a few knots that test at 100%. However, the clinch knot isn't one of them, improved or unimproved. I'd recommend "Practical Fishing Knots" by Lefty and Mark Sosin. If they don't cover it, you don't need it. The type of fishing you do should determine what knots you'll need to know. For salt water, you'll want to use the strongest knots and tie them perfectly. For fresh water, you can relax your standards a bit, but remember: the fish that destroys a sub-standard knot is NOT going to be a small one. That's why there are so many "big one that got away" stories. Whatever knots you use, it's important to be able to "feel" the breaking strength of your leader. It's hard to explain, but it's something that only comes with experience. I'll bet my fellow geezers here know what I'm talking about. ;)

#5 heavynets

heavynets

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 211 posts

Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:40 PM

Beware of what you read as to which knot is the strongest. Different brands and different diameters of the same material will give different results. Also the skill of the tier, the accuracy of the test equipment and the test procedure can effect the results. No one has the time to run tests on all of the variables of material, size, temperature, hook size, etc. to give a true "Strongest" knot.

See this link for one testers results: http://www.fieldands...t-fishing-knots

Also google "knot war".

I use the improved Davy knot for fly to tippet connections if the tippet is 5X or bigger. It is so quick and easy to tie, but will slip when used on small diameter line. I use the clinch and improved clinch knot for 5X or smaller tippet.

I much prefer the fisherman's loop (actually a slight variation) to the perfection loop. The size of the loop is much easier to control and the knot is slightly smaller. I don't know which is stronger.

#6 JSzymczyk

JSzymczyk

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,432 posts

Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:02 AM

I use the Trilene knot most of the time for tippet to fly. There are circumstances where it is not my first choice, but they are rare. It's a very strong knot when tied correctly. It does not seem to be that good for fluorocarbon material, in my unscientific tests (repeated over and over again in my garage) a regular clinch knot seems to be as strong as anything for flouro- often the material itself breaks before the knot.

Does anyone know

Where the Love of God goes

When the waves

Turn the minutes to hours?


#7 Capt Bob LeMay

Capt Bob LeMay

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 630 posts

Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:18 AM

On the rare occasion that I'm using a single strength tippet tied directly to the fly (mostly for bonefish where an 8 or 10lb tippet is pretty much a standard) then the Palomar gets the nod every time. It will test closest to the actual line strength of any single line knot you can find since you have two turns of line actually through the hook eye.... The referral to Kreh and Sosin's knot book is a very good idea. It was pretty much my bible thirty or more years ago when I was learning to use light tackle to the max. I belonged to the old Tropical Anglers Club down in Miami in the late seventies and early eighties. They had a full sized tensile strength meter that anyone could use and it was pretty handy. The thing you'd do with a new spool of mono back then was to do three breaking tests to determine its actual breaking strength (we were all hot to set new club records - and more than a few club members set new world records with the gear we used). Then we'd put a piece of tape on the end of the spool and record the results to make sure we knew the dry strength of any lines we might be using. This was important both for spin, plug, or conventional gear - but also for any fly tippets we might want to submit to the IGFA (or the old ISFA before they went out of business and transferred their records to the IGFA - I can't remember who kept the records for fly gear before those records as well were absorbed into the IGFA record system).

Spools of line back then (and still today) usually over tested the claimed rating (and occasionally they were just mis-labeled from the outfit that sold them....).

For fly gear I divide leader systems into single line with no shock tippet and leaders with a shock tippet. The knots for each vary quite a bit. If I'm using a "Poor Boy" leader (essentially just a straight single strength leader in the 20 to 30lb range that's four to five feet long) one end has a single Surgeon's loop that will connect that portion of the leader to the leader butt (a heavier piece of mono that is permanently attached to the end of the fly line with one or two nail knots and has another Surgeon's loop at the bitter end (4' of 30lb for a 7wt, 4' of 40lb for an 8wt, 4.5' of 40lb for a 9wt, all the way up to 6' of 60lb mono for an 11 or 12wt...). These days the Poor Boy is generally fluorocarbon... and the knot attaching the fly is just about always a loop knot, I prefer the Improved Homer Rhode knot...

Once you start adding a "shock tippet" (better named a bite tippet, since it's there when you're working fish with very abrasive jaws like tarpon or snook) things get complicated pretty quickly. If I'm staying with just single strength line my usual connection is a Slim Beauty knot (it used to be a Blood knot). Once you get up to where you're needing the absolute strongest leaders then each end of the tippet (or breaking strength, the way IGFA records are maintained....) then I use a Bimini Twist at each end before tying that Surgeon's loop (now a doubled Surgeon's loop) or connecting the other doubled end to a shock tippet using a Hufnagle or Slim Beauty knot. This complicated stuff becomes necessary when you're using heavy shock tippets with fairly light tippets (20 to 40, 20 to 60, 20 to 80, for example).

The results are a two part leader (whether single strength or with the more complicated shock tippet leader) that is connected loop to loop and very quick to change out for different conditions, different species, etc. Combining the length of the butt section with the Poor Boy usually gives you a nine to ten foot leader, with the shock tippet, about nine feet as a standard. When bonefishing I either use a manufactured tapered leader or tie my own using the Ritz formula and loop it to the butt (with a seven foot tapered leader that gives you an 11 foot leader with an 8wt...

AS you can guess this entire topic is complicated enough that a single magazine article won't quite cover it all. Most of the above is from an article I wrote a few years ago for a magazine....

Tight Lines
Bob LeMay
(954) 435-5666
Tight lines Bob LeMay (954) 435-5666

#8 cruzfly89

cruzfly89

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 114 posts

Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:09 AM

thanks for the helpful post Capt Bob LeMay. i have fished the improved clinch knot for years and have never really had any troubles with it. I was kind of surprised to learn it was a weaker knot than most, but as with all things fly fishing there is so many ways to get the job done and so many variations.
Cruz M.

#9 Peterjay

Peterjay

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,923 posts

Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:22 AM

Complicated is right! I do most of my fishing with a core group of eight or ten guys, and you won't find any two of us using the same knots and/or leader construction. Whatever knots you settle on, it's extremely important to learn to tie them correctly every time, and the best way to do that is to practice off the water, where there's no pressure.

I always carry a clearly marked pack of pre-tied butt sections and packs of pre-tied tippets with loop-to-loop connections. Trying to tie a complicated knot correctly with ten thumbs while fish are busting all over the place is difficult, even for experienced anglers.

#10 ditz2

ditz2

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,281 posts

Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:07 AM

I would certainly bow to the extensive knowledge and experience of the several of the contributors. Most of my fishing has been warmwater sweet water and in most conditions I use a 6# tippet. Heavy cover requires heavier of course. I use loop to loop connections from fly line to leader butt. Mono loop is a double surgeon knot in either 30 or 40#. I use rods from 2wt to 9wt. I use a short furled leader on my light rods. I use a loop to loop connection from leader to tippet and again I use the double surgeon. Tippet to fly knot is either a no slip loop, clinch, or double clinch. .....I have found that if the double clinch is properly tied the line normally breaks before the knot slips or breaks and I have used this for many, many years. I used to hand tie tapered leaders using blood knots but I now either used the furled leader or a butt section and tippet only. I find this system to be fast and easy on the stream.I almost never use a straight leader but only because it is against my senseabilities. .......I noticed the observation above about the clinch being used for flourocarbon. I have only recently bought some flourocarbon and was not sure how best to attach a fly.

This in only how I attach terminal tackle and may not be the most effecient.